7.65mm Truncated bullet
 

I have been reading many of the older posts in the shooting and reloading section. Mentioned in many of these posts is a truncated bullet for the original loading of this cartridge.

I have looked high and low and can't find a foto of one of these unique and obviously rare projectiles and/or rounds of ammunition. Is it possible that someone out there might have a foto of one of these rounds?

I am really not overjoyed with the choice of projectiles being available for this caliber and would like to design my own.Thanks,..................RayT

Good luck! I don't know why none of the ammo component manufacturers no longer offer the 93grFMJ....surely there would be more demand for it than some of the exotic bullets I see. The Sierra 86 gr is often out of stock and backordered on Midway. I'm sure Luger ,Mauser , CZ52 and Tokarev shooters would snap up a heavier 93-100gr bullet.

I must admit that I also have never seen a truncated 7.65 cal bullet/cartridge...just the round nose...

I have seen (and reloaded) 9mm truncated FMJ bullets for my Lugers (and 357 AutoMag)...and there are pics here (and elsewhere) of the original 9mm truncated bullet cartridges for the early Lugers...

I have two original 7.65 Luger cartridges, headstamped -

DWM
K K
471

Both are round nose FMJ...

There is only ~.325" of bullet protruding outside the case; that doesn't leave much room for truncation...

BTW: Some members have lamented the lack of truncated 9mm cartridges; Midway lists -

Fiocchi 124gr FMJ 9mm

$14.29/box 50

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/119...cone-box-of-50

I've used Hornady 100 gr .312 XTPs in several .30 Lugers over the years. It shoots very well, with absolutely no sign of pressure issues. I shoot them in my .30 shooter now. They are very accurate, and never had a hint of a problem.

Here you go :)

...And slightly off-topic, but someone here [Matt?] was looking for 7.65 French MAS (32 French Long) cartridge cases -

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/583...long-box-of-20

Ron,

Are you resizing these .312in. bullets down to .309in. before loading them, or just loading them as they are? I have wondered for a long time about trying the 110gr FMJ .309 bullets designed for 30 Carbine in a 30Luger brass, but have not done it yet.

7.65mm Parabellum
 

Thanks so much for all the great replies!

Vlim, from what I can measure on the screen, that looks like about a 4mm(.157) flat on the nose. As always, thanks much for the great foto, I think many of us here on the forum have never seen a 7.65mm round with a truncated bullet.

I will definately use this info for the bullet. Again, thanks a lot..................RayT

I load them as they are. I've never had any problems. Nearly every .30 Luger I've slugged have been right at .310 give or take. The Hornady XTPs mic at a hair over .310 , not .312 as marked. They have been extremely accurate, and the top of the cannelure groove is exactly right for OAL on a .30 Luger.

The only "issue" has been that I had a stainless Mec-Gar mag they would bind in, due to the edge on the hollow point. I took it apart and polished the inside front with a dowel and 400 grit paper. It works fine now.

Ron

I load 110gr FMJRN 30 carbine bullets in my C96 Mauser reloads; base drilled out to bring weight down to 93-95gr...

I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in a post some time back...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25293

7.65mm Bore
 

I slugged mine about 2 weeks ago and I am getting
.3102 across the grooves. However, I was able to slide the base of a .312 wadcutter about .050 past the end of the chamber, so there is a slight throat.....................

RAY1946:

I have just what you have been looking for.

From the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken 1904 Munitions-Katalog actual drawings of all of the original 7.65 bullets.

There are four rendered. One round nose, one round nose with a flat point, one round nose flat point with hollow point and one truncated cone (the one you are looking for).

All have a diameter of 7.83mm or .308 inches. Originals I have actually measured were all .309 inches.

Strangely, the original spec. Luger barrels are right at .311 inches (as are my 7.65 Mauser rifles).

I have been trying to get some folks interested in a custom mould cut to the original truncated cone design, but have not followed up.

Would you be interested?

Please PM me for a copy of the original designs.

Thanks!!


Sieger

7.65mm truncated bullet
 

I would be very interested. I have been checking out the Lee site and they seem to be pretty reasonable as far as producing a custom as long as it falls within certain parameters.

The bullet I am thinking of designing would definately have a gas-check shank. Once the current crop of crimp-on gas-checks are seated on a bullet, the gas-check becomes the base band and is about .085 high.

Thus, the overall length could be designed long enough to achieve the target weight(90-95grs.), while protecting the base from the flame temperature of a 25,000-30,000 load. Also incorporated in the design would be a flat point of about 4mm(.157) in diameter and a high diameter radius from the top driving band to the top of the bullet........................RayT

bullet mold....trunc cone 93
 

Hi Sieger & Ray.... count me in... I will split whatever cost amoung however many to get a custom mold like that... should be two of four cavity though... and have a small radius on the trunc top flat edge(just like the jcketed bullet)... like the RCBS for the 9mm TC mold, I'm in boys! til....lat'r....GT

Hi:

That sounds interesting.

By the way, Lee already has a TC bullet that might work well
in the Luger 7.65 as is. I think they sell it as a .32 cal. It is of tumble lube type somewhere around the correct weight.

Personally, I feel that a gas check on these bullets would be an over kill. I have shot a gazillion 9mm lead flat base non gas-check bullets through my two Lugers and have never had a leading problem. Handloaded properly, these have proven more accurate than my most accurate FMJ bullets, and frankly, that is saying quite a lot (six touching at 25 yards on a reqular basis).

Your thoughts?

Sieger

Hi GT:

What about that Recoil Spring project?

Yes, the Lead RCBS 124 grain TC bullet is a very accurate bullet. This is my most accurate in the 9mm (properly handloaded, six touching on a regular basis at 25 yards).

Frankly, just downsizing that bullet design to 7.65 may be a good place to start a bullet design project. indeed!!! Remember, its the length of the bullet that really counts, not the weight (within reason).

Sieger

Hey RAY1946"

Some where, in the back of my mind, I think that Fiocchi makes and markets TC FMJ 7.65 Luger ammo. Their 9mm FMJ TC product is really quite good. They call it a "Combat Bullet". The 9mm bullet design looks identical to the original German one to me (eyeball method only).

Your follow-up search may be quite informative.

Sieger

Thank you for the info. I have an old issue of The Handloader Magazine where they did an article on reloading the 30 Luger round. They used some 32Cal bullets(.312), but sized them to .309in. before loading them. It is always of interest to me to find any bullet that can be used correctly in loading the 30 Luger brass.

I have read this post more than once with interest. I have a good supply of 30 Carbine 110gr JSP bullets and keep wondering about using them. I don't think that I want to set each bullet up and drill it out as you did, though(too lazy!!). I have found a 92gr LRN bullet that is working out very nicely at the current time. I am pleased with that bullet, but always looking for a FMJ or JSP bullet also. I have used the Hornady, an Sierra 86gr (.308) FMJ intended for the 30 Mauser, and they do pretty well for me. You just have to seat them below the cannalure for a correct OAL.

me, too. That's why I made the jig to drill 10 at one time... ;)

7.65 bullets
 

While trying to find more info on the elusive 7.65mm truncated bullet and other 7.65mm projectiles, I ran across a very unique site;"Land of Borchardt".

This is new to me, although many of you have probably been aware of this site. On this site is listed an excerpt from the 1904 DWM munitions catalogue that shows drawings of the 4(type261,7.65mm)bullets available at the time. Low and behold,there on the far right is the 261L(Flachspitzen Geschosse) truncated bullet. Amazingly, this looks like a scaled down version of the German Military 9mm truncated bullet of WW1.

Also shown is a drawing of the standard round-nose bullet with an overall length of 15mm(.5905). This bullet is replicated almost exactly in the current offering from Lee Manufacturing; the 311-100-2R. Although the original is 93grs. and the Lee is listed at 100grs, they are basically the SAME bullet. I have load data for this bullet from Accurate powders using there #5 and #7 powders and may fool with this before going to a design effort for a truncated bullet............RayT

This topic is a bit old but I thought there may be some interest in the research I've done. Here's a family tree I made of the cartridges which descended from the 7.65mm Borchardt (I hope the auto-resizing is working correctly!) -

http://i.imgur.com/P1qX8.jpg


7.65x25mm Borchardt - Introduced by Hugo Borchardt in 1893 for his C.93 self-loading pistol which was produced by Ludwig Loewe & Company. The cartridges were made by Deutsche Metall-Patronen-Fabrik. After 1896 the two firms were merged into one company - Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM). The pistol and its cartridges enjoyed limited commercial success. The cartridges were made in Germany and the United States.

7.63x25mm Mauser - The C.96 Mauser pistol was developed using the 7.65mm Borchardt cartridge. When the pistol was nearly ready to bring to the commercial market, Mauser developed its own variation with a slightly heavier powder charge. This cartridge was introduced in 1896 and was dimensionally identical to Borchardt. It was sold with the DWM catalog number 403. These cartridges were apparently sold interchangeably by DWM and most other makers. Only differences in labelling existed and slight differences in the cartridge cases (copper primer, no stab crimps on the Borchardt rounds).

7.65x21mm Parabellum - Designed by Georg Luger, working for DWM, patented in 1900. It was developed for a modification of the 1893 Borchardt pistol called the 'Borchardt-Luger'. The cartridge itself uses a truncated version of the 25mm Borchardt case. It was given the DWM catalog number 471. The pistol and its cartridge were adopted by the Swiss Army in 1903. This cartridge was introduced with a round nose bullet but a truncated cone version appeared in 1903. Around the same time, a blackened case variation for the rifle-length 'Parabellum Carbine' was offered. This used a heavier powder charge to take full advantage of the longer barrel. The Carbine load was officially cataloged as DWM 471A but many used the same '471' headstamp as the cases are identical otherwise.

9x19mm Parabellum - This was developed in 1902 by DWM for a modification of Luger pistol. The previous versions used the 7.65mm Parabellum which failed to impress the German military. A more potent cartridge was requested which was developed by trimming the 7.65x21mm case to 19mm and loading a 9mm bullet. The cartridge and newly redesigned Parabellum pistol (C.04 - 'Navy Luger') was adopted by the German Navy in 1904 and another redesigned pistol (P.08) was adopted by the Army in 1908. It was originally loaded with 124gr truncated cone bullet which was replaced in 1915 with round nose bullet - both have the same DWM catalog number 480C. Loading data remained the same. The reasons for the change of bullet shape remain unclear. US makers continued to use the truncated cone for the '9mm Luger' well into 1930's. An experimental version, the 9mm Carbine was advertised. This used a blackened case with a DWM catalog number 480D, however it was never seen outside of the 1904 DWM catalog.

9x25mm Mauser Export - This was the most powerful member of the family. It was developed by Mauser and made by DWM in 1908 for Mauser C.96 'Export-Modell' pistol. Much like the 9mm Parabellum it began as the 7.63x25mm case which was necked to 9mm. Rather than trimming the length it remained at 25mm to maximize the powder capacity. It was also used in the Mauser C.06/08. A few submachine guns were also produced for this cartridge such as the Steyr-Solothurn MP-34 and the Danuvia 39.M and 43.M. It had the DWM catalog number 487.

7.62x25mm Tokarev - The TT-30 pistol was developed in the early 1930's by Fedor Tokarev. It used a domestic-made version of the 7.63mm Mauser called 7.62mm TT M.30. It had the same dimensions and loading as 7.63mm Mauser but most often with a copper washed or lacquered steel case. Captured ammunition in German service during WWII was listed as 7.62mm Pistol Patrone 2601 (r). There is some confusion about the loading data of 7.62 TT as it compares to the Mauser cartridge. Originally they were identical and interchangeable. Postwar loads such as the Czech M.52 cartridge and subsequent commercial loadings tend to be higher velocity than the original Russian cartridges. For this reason it's ill-advised to use Tokarev ammunition in a 'Mauser pistol.

Thank you for this! I found it fascinating.. any idea where the Bergman line would have been?

9mm Bergmann (9mm Bergmann No.6) was actually developed before the 9mm Parabellum but wasn't terribly successful. It begat the 9mm Largo and 9mm Bergmann-Bayard, however. Here's another photo I put together and the accompanying text from a different forum (took too long to type all this the first time!). I should note this isn't all-inclusive, just what I've got on hand.

http://i.imgur.com/hd5Tn.jpg


9mm Self-Loading Cartridges, 1901-1951

1. 9x18mm Makarov was a Soviet handgun cartridge introduced in 1951, presumably developed from the short-lived German 9x18mm Ultra experimental cartridge.
2. .380 Automatic was developed by John Moses Browning and introduced in 1908 with the Colt Model 1908 pistol. This cartridge has had several names in the US market including Automatic Colt Pistol (.380 ACP), Colt Automatic Pistol Hammerless (.380 CAPH), and Automatic Colt (.380 AC).
3. 9x17mm Browning Short is a commonly used name for the .380 ACP outside of the US - predominantly in Europe. Other names include 9mm Corto and 9mm Kurz.
4. 9x17mm Nickl is a variation of the 9mm Browning Short with similar ballistics. The primary difference is the rebated rim. It was developed by Mauser engineer Josef Nickl - designer of the Model 1910 and 1914. He developed this cartridge in 1916 for his new design which was eventually produced by CZ as the vz.22 pistol. The cartridge was short-lived and later versions of the CZ pistols were chambered in 9mm Browning Short. The 9mm Nickl can be used in 9mm Browning guns, but not vice versa.
5. 9x17mm Beretta M34 is a variation of the 9mm Browning Short developed in Italy for the Beretta Model 1934 pistol. Still digging for confirmed ballistics on this one but it appears to use a heavier bullet than other 9x17mm loads I have.
6. 9x18mm Ultra was originally developed in the late 1930's for a Walther PP variant for Luftwaffe issue. Development ceased at the onset of the second World War and were not resumed by the military. In the 1970's the cartridge was resurrected in an unsuccessful attempt to appeal to police agencies with the Walther PP Super and Mauser HSc Super pistols. The pistol in this caliber ceased production by the end of the 1970's.
7. 9x20mm Browning Long began as a military cartridge in 1903 for a few European countries - notably used by Belgium and Sweden in the FN M1903 and Husqvarna m/1907 pistols. It fell out of use by the end of the first World War.
8. 9x19mm Parabellum was developed by Georg Luger for DWM in 1902. The cartridge was developed by shortening the 7.65x21mm Parabellum case and necking it to 9mm diameter. It was originally developed with a 124gr truncated cone bullet and adopted by the German Navy in 1904. It was adopted by the German Army in 1908.
9. 9x19mm Parabellum post-1915 - The standard bullet shape changed to a round ogive around 1915 with no concrete reason that can find. Both remained in concurrent production for a few years in Germany and the truncated cone bullet was made in the US well into the 1930's.
10. 9x19mm Glisenti was an Italian variant of the 9x19mm Parabellum for the Model 1910 Glisenti pistol. The main difference is the lighter powder charge used in the Italian cartridge. The pistol and cartridge remained in limited service well into the second World War.
11. 9x19mm Beretta 9M38 was the next 9x19mm service cartridge adopted by Italy. It was introduced with the Beretta Model 1938 (Moschetto Automatico Beretta Modello 1938) submachine gun. Essentially the 9mm Parabellum with a 116gr steel jacketed bullet. Most are marked '9M38' to prevent confusion and use in the Glisenti pistols.
12. .38 ACP was developed at the end of the 19th century and first offered for sale in the Colt Model 1900 pistol. Despite being one of the highest-velocity pistol cartridges available, it did not enjoy much commercial success until the 1930's when police found the .38 Special service revolvers lacking in ability to pierce automobile bodies. This led to the development of the .38/44 and subsequent .357 Magnum cartridges. The velocity of factory ammunition varied greatly over the years from 1200 down to 1040 fps.
13. .38 Super Automatic has a fuzzy history. A new pistol by Colt, the 'Super .38' was introduced around 1930 chambered for .38 ACP. By the late 1950's catalogs began to advertise a '.38 Super' cartridge. Since 1974 the '.38 Super +P' cartridge indicates a 36.5k PSI max pressure and '.38 ACP' indicates a 26.5k PSI max pressure. Some .38 Super loads are similar to the early experimental .38 ACP loads - around 1300 fps. The average today seems to be around 1200 fps.
14. 9.8mm ACP was developed around 1912 in an attempt to find a market for Colt pistols in Europe. Romania showed interest in the pistol and cartridge but eventually adopted the Austrian Steyr-Hahn pistol instead. This cartridge ceased production rather soon after.
15. 9x23mm Steyr was developed for the Steyr-Hahn Model 1911 and 1912 pistols and was adopted by the Austrian military in 1912. It appears to have no common lineage with other 23mm cases and was a domestic development. Ballistics are very similar to the 9mm Parabellum.
16. 9x23mm Bergmann No.6 was developed in Germany in 1901 by Theodor Bergmann for the Bergmann-Mars pistol and was tested by the Spain military. This cartridge is more notable for its successors.
17. 9x23mm Bergmann-Bayard was a slight modification of the original German 9mm Bergmann developed in 1903. Similar dimensions and ballistics, just a change to the bullet seating depth and thus overall length. It was adopted by Denmark for the Bergmann-Bayard M1910 pistols.
18. 9x23mm Largo was the Spanish name of the 9mm Bergmann cartridge adopted in 1905 for a number of service pistols. It remained in production until the late 1980's. Early runs of the ammunition were called '9mm Campo-Giro' for the service pistol adopted in 1912. Similar external dimensions to .38 ACP and some 9mm Largo firearms are chambered for both. These are often marked 9mm/.38 on the chamber.
19. 9x25mm Mauser Export was a 7.63x25mm case necked out to 9mm by Mauser to develop a quite powerful pistol cartridge in 1908. It was chambered in C.96 and C.06/08 pistols. Not commercially successful partly due to the limited market. Most were sold to Africa and South America. It was used in a few submachine guns such as the Steyr-Solothurn MP-34 and the Danuvia 39.M and 43.M.

Exactly what I was looking for! thank you.. which will lead to another post on the 'Other Guns' board...

Hi:

Groove diameter on the 7.65 Parabellum is right at .311.

I've fired gazillions of lead .312s through my 1920 with no problems of any type.

The original FMJ DWM bullets, were, indeed, right at .309.

Sieger