What to look for to determine re-furbishing
 

Hi all,

I saw a WWII Japanese pistol that is in almost pristine condition. The seller says it is all original and I have no reason to doubt him.

Based upon some of the posts on this forum, I carefully studied the markings on the pistol. Only one of the marks has a halo, the other marks on it do not have halos. All of the marks are, however, correct to the pistol and are all matching.

So, the question, how can I determine just by visual inspection that a pistol's finish is original and not refurbished in any way.

BTW, the owner of this pistol is a board member and he could not account for the lack of halos either. We jointly decided to post this so we would both know the answer.

Richard

Can you post pics?

Opps...I forgot to post a link to the ad in WTS:

Here it is: Nambu.

Hi Richard, You really need a Nambu specialist. Halos occur when numbers or marks are stamped after rust bluing, marks stamped prior to bluing do not show halos. For halos to prove anything you need to know if Nambus were rust blued or salt blued in the first place, and which, if any, marks were applied after bluing. Regards, Norm

Thanks Norme, I'll have to do some research.

It looks good to me, appears to have been fired very little by looking at the bolt head.

Steve, thanks for the insight about the bolt head.


OK, Norme, here is what I found out about the bluing:

"...the pistol is made from steel and has a hot salt blue finish."

I am still looking to see if I can get info on when the marks are applied.

My thinking is that the serial number and arsenal marks were applied prior to bluing and the acceptance stamp applied after bluing. This theory accounts for the lack of halos on every mark except the acceptance stamp.

There are a lot of numbers to check on a Nambu, and total disassembly is required.
dju

Here are more pictures of the inside
 

I received more pictures just a bit ago.

These may help to say whether it is re-furbished, etc...

I looked very carefully at that same gun last month with the intent to purchase it. It looks to be original finish to me. Only a hands on exam will tell for absolute sure. The grips are unnumbered as I recall so they are probably replacements. Same with the firing pin. They broke so often in the field they issued a spare with every gun! Still a nice gun and I would have it in my collection if it came my way!

Curious where you found that each luger was issued with a spare firing pin. Never heard of this? Bill

Bill,
He is talking about the Nambu.

Sorry. Must be an age thing. Bill

Thanks for all the good info and analysis.

I have pretty much decided to move forward with the purchase with the caveat that I will take the Nambu to the 13 July Atlanta International Military Show at the Cobb Civic Center in Marietta GA.

There is usually a Japanese expert or two in attendance; I will get them to do an analysis of the condition. If it passes muster, and I am 98% sure that it will, then I am a happy camper. :)

Again, thanks all for the good info.

Richard

I feel that it's not common to find professionally restored Type 14, probably due to the market price has not attracted much activities yet. And, many T14 are in nice original shape, which must be bring-back from Japan mainland after the war.

===

[Edit] Grandpa, Papa, and Baby Nambu have different story though.

One thing else to consider with Bringback Japanese handguns like the T-14 was the availability/lack of factory made ammo post war. They were not used as much post war as say a Luger where 9mm has been off the shelf for years. Other than the plated ones I've seen in the flesh, Only one I encountered was completely redone and you could tell it was a mile away.

$1 per round for ammo. But once you buy a Nambu, you HAVE to shoot it. Or at least I did. And they are SWEET to shoot.
dju

Hi:

I've never seen an early trigger guard model in hot salts. I've only seen a very high quality rust blue applied to these beautiful, well designed and manufactured pistols.

Also, the price is way too high!!!!!

Sieger

Hi sieger (victor, winner),

I totally agree on the price issue, that is why I am very hesitant.
I feel, given the current market, that the top dollar on a Nambu, even in this condition, is high tens to low elevens.

This may yet deter the purchase.

Uh, hundreds?...It is my feeling that even if this is a 'dipped' re-blue, it is a very good one (no buffing!) and worth what the seller is asking...that said, as an accumulator, not a collector, I would accept it either way (original or re-blued). :thumbup:

I would be hesitant to accept a gun show 'expert' opinion...But you will find out how much that expert knows in a few quick minutes of talking with him... ;)

It does not hurt being over-suspicious at the beginning. After accumulating a bunch of them, telling reblue/original finish is not that hard on most of them. This experience build-up process is fun as well. Not a Nambu collector, but that must apply to Nambu as well.

The finish is rust blue on this one. The seller might not describe it correctly. But it's rust blue and this one should be rust blued. Looks ok to me, except the grip is too dark to tell on the photo. If interested, this one worth paying the seller for hand-on checking.

Postino,

Don't get me wrong, I do want it; but, for the price he is asking, I would expect at least two matching mags...maybe I am greedy. :)

Richard

Just realized this Nambu is the one listed on WTS section. I had been very hot on Nambu when I was in teen, visited a big museum tens of times to view a pair of Nambu T14s (one large trigger guard, and one small trigger guard). The museum security must feel that behavior was suspicious, and they tuned the monitoring camera straight on the displaying glass cabinet :)

Wouldn't a hot dip blue usually result in this finish inside and out? The pic showing the mag well, and another looking down into the gullet of the action, appear to show that the inside of the frame is in the white. This is one criterion for verifying rust bluing. Another, I guess, would be general color--don't rust blued guns look "bluer" than hot salt dipped guns, which tend to look "blacker" in comparison?

There may be other telltale places which indicate of suggest rebluing--like the tip of the Luger's toggle axle retaining pin shows that these parts, at least, were blued while assembled if it is blued, whereas factory original parts were blued, then assembled, leaving the exposed tip of the pin on top of the toggle knob in the white. Just one thing to check. Another would be the texture of the surfaces of the gun under 10x magnification. You'd see evidence of it if the gun had been washed over by glass bead blasting. You'd get the most accurate story on the timing of those stampings, etc.

Is there a Nambu forum? If so, and they are half as great as the crowd here, you're in business!

DP

p.s. Hundreds, right?

Yes, I was thinking hundreds till I posted all the information and pictures over at the "Arms of the Rising Sun" forum.

See the post here.

That forum, like this one, has bonifide experts who have written books on Japanese militaria and are very willing to help a newbie like me evaluate a Nambu. This is not the first one to catch my fancy. They have saved me from making unwise purchases in the past. I might also add that the experts here have done the same.

Everyone agrees the pistol is in great condition, original, and matching; but, it is not rare. The 12.12 series was produced in the thousands; its sole attractiveness is its condition, all matching, and originality.

However, even given its condition, the price being asking is way out of line with the value of the pistol as they see it.

They said that on a good day, in today's Nambu market, it would be worth about 1000.00 and that is a stretch.

At a minumum, if it had a second mag and a lanyard, then the price being asked may be justified.

Anyway, I am not going to purchase it. According to the seller, he paid in the 12-13 range for it from FGS firearms about 5 years ago.

Also, I noticed that he has dropped the price.

Richard

Does anyone know of any difference in the grips of these nambu pistols? I am buying one with 6-7 grooves yes most like the one pictured above have many more.

It may be a later in the war built gun. Near the end, the ones with the 20.? Dates usually have smooth or slab grips.

Welcome to the forum.