1./A.R.1.40 any info on this unit please
 

Hi

My Luger is unit marked for the 1st field artillery reg battery 1 weapon 40. However I cannot find any real background on this unit. It would be great to understand where my Luger has been and may have been involved in

Any help with this would go greatly appreciated

Regards James

James,

Your Luger is marked to the post WWI Reichswehr 1st Battery / Artillery Regt 1 weapon 40. circa 1921.
It was part of the Reichswehr 1st Infantry Div. It was stationed a Königsberg . One of three Artillery Regiments deployed on the Eastern Frontier against the Polish Army. Equiped with either 77mm field guns , or 105mm light field howitzers.

In the early to mid 1920's Poland, and Czechoslovakia supported by Russia conducted assaults against the Eastern Border of Germany in an attempt to retake territories captured by Germany during the war, which Germany was allowed to retain by the Treaty after WWI.

August 1939 it was reorganized into the 37th Heavy Artillery Regt. and was deployed during the invasion of France. In 1944 it was again reorganized into the 121st Artillery Regt.

Ron

Wow. Realy interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing that. The pistol is dated 1917 and property stamped 1920. Would it have been used in ww2? Markings are purely ww1 across the pistol. There is an x stamped on the inside of the wood grips only visible when you remove the grips. Thats the only marking i cant tie down to ww1

James

James, Yes it would have been used in WWI and WWII. Your Luger has a rich history. Can't help you with the X on the grip. Inspector's mark possibly?

Ron

Um...Would it be possible to post some pics of the markings & the pistol???

Thought x may have been a russian capture mark? Watch this space ill post pics as soon as i can

James

Here are some pics of the pistol,

and the "x"...

Ron (or Don) -

(Or Norm etc) :)

What is that smaller number/letter up by the trigger guard??? I don't think I've ever seen anything there before...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...2&d=1338273652

Rich,

That's the provisional unit mark applied prior to the final or official unit mark. 1st Regt. weapon 40.

James,

It started out as an Artillery Luger in 1917. Note the Artillery sight notch in the chamber. It was re-barreled, or assembled from parts on hand and reissued after WWI. A very nice example of a Reichswehr Luger. The Russian capture "X" would be a large and crude X stamped into the receiver. On the grip, it would be a routine inspection mark.

Russian captures and/or East German VoPos are usually mismatched and often have force matched crudely applied numbers.

Ron

Thanks so much for the info. The sear bar is force match with an electro pencil and the bolt assembly is from a bulgarian 1908 contract luger. I dont think it was a east german police luger. Would it not be marked acordingly? Other than that all numbers are non forced and 100% matchi ng.

James

James,

In that case, it is a VoPo or RC. Still has a nice Reichswehr unit mark. VoPos are coming into their own collectable catagory. Their value has been rising fairly rapidly also. I know of at least one high end collector who is grabbing them up while still at affordable prices.

Ron

Thanks ron. Would u say my luger is a keeper or somthing thats quite common. It seems to have a lot of history and its in realy good condition. I suppose im asking if its considered a collectable/ investment or just another luger?

James

I took a pic of previously mentioned parts, for referance

James,

I would definitly classify it as a lower end collectable. Russian Captures and VoPos are drying up. You don't see them for sale as often, and the prices are gaining. I bought my first VoPo for $250, 2 years later I sold it for nearly $700. Today it would bring close to $900- $1000.

Here's some additional info on the 121st Artillery Regt. The last sentence confirms that your Luger was most probably captured by the Russians around Kalingrad.



The 121st Artillery Regt was part of the XXVIII Army Corps

121st Infantry Div. under Major-General Helmuth Priess

405th Infantry Regiment, 407th Infantry Regiment, 408th

Infantry Regiment, 121st Artillery Regiment

The corps was created on May 20, 1940 in Wehrkreis (Military Region) III. During the war, the corps was subordinated to the German 6th, 16th, 18th, and 3rd Panzer Armies. In 1945, the corps was briefly named Armeeabteilung Samland (Corps Task Force Samland). The corps fought in Samland until annihilated in late April 1945.

Samland is a peninsula in the Kalingrad Oblast of Russia, on the southeastern shore of the Baltic Sea

So it was indeed a Russian capture. Does that rule out being a VoPo?

I realy thank you for sheding so much light on all this Ron, it adds to the buzz of collecting when like minded individuals come together to share knowlage for no personal gain. And so interesting too!

James

James,

IMO, the electro-penciled number would indicate a VoPo. All VoPos were Russian Captured, and then distrubuted to the East German police, who inturn, mixed and force matched parts.

A VoPos, for a lack of a better disciption, are re-worked Russian Captures.

Your Luger was WWI issue, Reichswehr issue, Wermacht issue serving on the Eastern Front, captured by the Russians, and re-issued to the East Germans. Quite a history, for bits of steel and wood.

Ron

Ron,

Ive given my grips a refurb and it appiers that ive found a nazi inspection stamp, physicly prooving WW2 issue. About 3CM above this mark is the number "42" stamped into the wood. Let me know what you think. It seems that the 1st pic is the original grip from WW1 and the right hand side (attached) was WW2 issued

Regards, James

Found a VoPo marking...

James -

Do not underestimate the East German 'Police'. In the Cold War years, following WW II, the East Germans were using their 'barrack police' as the nucleus of their new army. The 'Police' had tanks and MiG jet fighters. They were one of the reasons the Cold War was so intense. If the USSR had ever decided to engulf Europe, the East German 'Police' would have been an integral part of their shock army. IIRC, East German pilots even flew & fought in some of the insurrections in Africa in the 50's & 60's as 'advisors'... :rolleyes:

I don't have Don Maus' book, but I would be interested in knowing just what East German 'Police' units were armed with Lugers... :)

Its all realy interesting. Just hard to source the info. So much history in one pistol.

The police property mark on the frame is a plus. VoPos are rarely found with the property mark still in tact, if it was ever applied at all. It increases the collectability.

Here's a link to Mark Castell's website. Check out his EG VoPo Lugers.

http://www.p38guns.com/East%20German%20Guns.htm

Ron

Thanks Ron. I originally bought this luger because it was simply the 1st one that i came across in my quest to own a luger. Its realy cool to keep uncovering all these peices to the puzzle of its past. Thanks for the link.

Just on the grips. It does seem that the current ones i have are original most of the vopo's ive seen have the bakerlite type. I may try to source a pair.

I didnt know the vopo property stamp was a rare find. Ive aslo found a "u" with a symbol above it on the side of the toggle. Im told this is also a vopo rework stamp.

James

James,

The East Germans and or Russians used whatever parts were available to mix and match to get a functioning pistol.

Also, many of the imported VoPos had the East German "Bull's Eye" plastic grips replaced by the buyers with original wood grips, after they purchased the gun. It's a good probability that this could be the case with yours.

The EG Bull's Eye plastic grips come up for sale on ebay and the gun auction sites quite often. There was a time that you could buy them for $10 or $15. Now they seem to be approaching the $50 mark.

If it were mine, I would buy a set just to keep with the pistol for authentication and originality purposes, before they get too expensive.

And yes, the Crown/U is an East German proof. They manufactured replacement parts on captured equipment. They are also known to have manufactured approx 100 complete Lugers. (see Mark's site) These are very desirable and obviously very rare.

BTW, Mark is very active on the Luger forum's sister forum, the P.38/ PP &PPK forum. He's a great guy and very knowledgable on VoPos. He could possibly give you more information on your Luger.

http://www.p38forum.com/

Ron

So would you say the crowned u makes mine a rarer find ron?

I will definatly invest in those grips

James

Just to note i also have the crowned n on the under of the barrel and the serial number has what looks to be an added "a" after the serial number on the left hand side of the frame

Jamez

No, not rare at all. The Crown/U is found fairly commonly on EG Lugers. Usually on the left receiver near the serial number or below the serial number on the rail.

The Crown / N on the barrel is common also, indicating an EG replaced barrel. The EG C/N is of a slightly different style than the commercial DWM C/N, but similar.

One interesting thing about VoPos is that very rarely will two Lugers have the same East German markings in the same place, or even bare similar markings. It's as if they just stamped them haphazardly , if they stamped them at all.

The one outstanding feature on yours, is the unaltered/ uncancelled Police "Sun Burst" property mark on the frame. It probably went unnoticed due to it being behind the TD lever.

This in addition to the uncancelled Reichswehr unit mark on the grip strap make it unusual.

Back to the WWII Waffenamt on the grip. It's not likely that those grips were on it when in Russia or EG. The Russians hated the Nazis, and would go to great lengths to obliterate any Nazi markings on captured weapons.

I just noticed the Russian / Bulgarian? extractor in your photos. Another plus.

Ron

Does the added "a" look like this?

http://p38guns.com/9747-a.htm

If so it may indicate the luger was a duplicate serial number and the "a" added to distinguish it from the other gun. Since these are all reworks I think the EG's kept inventory just using the original serial number without the letter suffix from the factory.

My 2c,

Mark

Thanks mark. Yes it does look like the one in the link.

James

Ive found a very faint crowned bnp mark on the toggle just behind the dwn banner. Just googled it and it means itsbeen proofed by the british. Is the a military mark or an import mark? And how would you think it ties into the history previously discussed?

James

James,

It would indicate that the toggle link was replaced at some point after the recent import, using a British proofed part. I would doubt the East Germans had access to British proofed pistols or parts.

If the Luger had passed through the UK it would have numerous and obvious British proofs on the barrel, as required by British law.

Ron

Thanks Ron. Does make sence.

James

To be sure, the East Germans were the most doctrinaire of communists within Warsaw Pact. A theory I once heard from an Order of Battle type in our Army was that the purpose of the huge East German Army was to threaten Poland, Czecho and Hungary should they balk at any war with NATO forces.

Their rank and file units were the best trained, best equipped and best led, after SOF, in Warsaw Pact.