Unit Mark G.K. on 1914 Erfurt...
 

Hello,

First a thank you for what a great forum this is, I've been following the site for a few months and found just a wealth of information here, thank you, although not well informed I'm better informed when making purchases.

Now my question, I recently purchased a 1914 Erfurt with the unit mark G.K.211, serial number 2446ns. I should have it tomorrow and will post pictures, but I've been trying to track down the unit mark and was hoping for a bit of help. In Jan Still's Imperial Luger's he lists G.K. as Garde Kurassier which is the "1st" Prussian Heavy Cavalry, his note is that G.K.number is for staff of the unit, but he does have a couple question marks after so I'm guessing this is a tentative identification. The Seller felt the marking was for General Headquarters staff but wasn't sure. Does anyone else have a G.K. marked gun? Your identification? If it is the Garde Kurassier that'll be icing on already very nice gun and holster, the unit fought the whole war and was only dismounted in December 1917 which was somewhat unusual I believe for cavalry to keep their horses that long. May have been because they fought in Russia from 1915-17. Also, are there any good english sites that have histories on German units from WWI? I found a German one and did a rough translation for what I found so far but Google translator is far from perfect and my german is pretty rusty.

Thanks,
Nick

The weapon number "211" is far too high to be a regimental staff weapon. I have a 1914 also marked like yours with a high weapon number and with a sear afety. It has been identified by Don Maus as being a police property mark. I believe that he is correct.

Might be a Prussian police unit mark.

This site:

http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/police_unit_marks.html

lists:

G. Gumbinnen district

This command group was pretty large:

Kriminalpolizei: detective police force. In 1932 it consisted of 10,856 men.

(Edit: Don M's note below is, of course, from the authority on this subject... So much for my un-educated guess!)

Marc

That's a lot of detectives... :eek:

Was there that much criminal activity in 1932??? :confused:

Thanks all, the pistol does have a sear safety like George mentioned on his, do you have the reference from Don Maus's book? I don't have the book yet (on my list to buy!). I did check Marc's link but the odd thing with the markings from the examples are that kriminalpolizei for Gumbinnen would be K.G. not G.K. I think. If the gun was for the Garde would there have been markings for companies under G.K. or would they just have marked them for the whole unit so there would be higher numbers?

Thanks, Nick

Sorry, quick correction, it is 122 not 211 for a number.

Thanks, Nick

Nick, the marking is from the Gendarmeriekorps of Hessen. This pistol is listed in Table 16-3 of History Writ in Steel.

Thanks Don, guess now I really do need to pick up your book!

nick

I hope you enjoy it!

1914 Erfurt, sn 2446 ns, marked G.K.122. Question: Nick where was this marking applied?

I have six G.K. marked Imperial lugers in my data base as follows:

1913 Erfurt, sn 321a, marked G.K.29.
1913 Erfurt, sn 403a, marked G.K.47.
1914 Erfurt, sn 2515 marked G.K.74.
1914 Erfurt, sn 2446, marked G.K.122.
1918 DWM , sn 3305a, marked G.K.126.
1918 DWM, sn 7402a, marked G.K.141.

However, the location nor format of the G.K. is not indicated in my data base.

The G.K. stamp is identified in the listed publications as follows:

The Imperial German Regimental Marking Revised Edition; by Jeff Noll page 44: G.K. signifies Garde Kurassier Regiment

German Small Arms Markings from authentic sources by Joachim Gortz and Don L. Bryans; page 40: G.K.5.74 signifies Garde Kurassier Regiment, 5 squadron, weapon 74.

HandBuch Deutscher Waffenstempel auf Militar- und Diensthandwaffen 1871-2000; by Albert Wacker and Joachim Gortz; page 31; G.K.5.74 signifies Garde Kurassier Regiment , 5 squadron, weapon 74

Central Power Pistols page 269: 1913 Erfurt, sn 321a, marked G.K.29. signifies Garde Kurassier Regiment Stab waffe 29.

History Writ in Steel German Police Markings 1900-1936 by L. Donald Maus page 257-258; G.K.128 on the front strap of a 1918 DWM signifies Gendarmeriekorps of Hessee weapon 128. He also indicates that the unit stamps are located on both the front strap or over the chamber. The over the chamber location is has not been previously reported on Imperial Lugers but is typical of some Weimar unit stamps. Also Maus reports that a number of these Lugers have police installed sear safeties.

I now agree with Don (George and Marc), the G.K. stamp represents Gendarmeriekorps of Hessee weapon 128. (Modified as per Dons comments below.)

Note: History Writ in Steel, German Police Markings 1900-1936 by L. Donald Maus is highly recommended and clearly the best book to identify German Police stamps.

Jan

Jan, thank you for your recommendation of my book.

Although I have not seen the markiings, I'm inclined to believe that G.K.5.74. is from a Garde Kurassier Regiment because of the existence of a squadron number (5) in the marking. The G.K. markings without this additional designator are almost certainly Hessische Gendarmeriekorps.

As explained in HWIS, the Lugers with G.K. markings on the chambers are all 1908 DWM Commercials and the markings include a crown. In addition, the weapon numbers and serial numbers match, strongly suggesting these markings were factory applied. I believe these were purchased for the Gendarmeriekorps during the Imperial era. The crown probably represents the Grand Duke of Hesse.

The grip strap markings on the other Lugers were probably applied very soon after WWI on military surplused pistols used to arm the expanded Gendarmeriekorps.

Don
The 5.74 (5 squadron, weapon 74, used in the two books below) is not necessarly a real or used example. They are repeated seven times with various similar unit markings examples.
Jan

German Small Arms Markings from authentic sources by Joachim Gortz and Don L. Bryans; page 40: G.K.5.74 signifies Garde Kurassier Regiment, 5 squadron, weapon 74.

HandBuch Deutscher Waffenstempel auf Militar- und Diensthandwaffen 1871-2000; by Albert Wacker and Joachim Gortz; page 31; G.K.5.74 signifies Garde Kurassier Regiment , 5 squadron, weapon 74

Good point. I had noticed in the Wacker/Görtz book a tendency to "invent" Weimar police markings based on a combination of abbreviations permitted by the instructions even though no such unit existed. One of several examples is S.Si. listed in Table 5 on p. 295 for the Schupo of Sigmaringen. There was no Schupo presence in Sigmaringen. Perhaps this was also done for Imperial military markings.

Don, Jan,

Thank you both for your discussion, it's been very interesting to read as I try to learn more about the gun. I should have the gun tonight and will try to post a picture of the mark.

Thanks, Nick

G.K.5.74 is originally listed in the stamping order from 1909 and was used with the Garde Kürassier Regiment 5. Squadron weapon 74.
I think that such a high number would have issued to a rifle 98 and could not be found on a Luger because 74 Lugers would be too many for a squadron.

I´m with George Anderson and think it could be possible that it is a Police unit mark but I must also say that I do not know if it is really correct.
It may be that Klaus Schad has an idea.

Best regards
Klaus

I've received the gun and wanted to post a picture of the marking. The seller provided some interesting information from Reinhard Kornmayer and Major a.D.hans-Rudolf v.Stein suggesting that the Garde-Kurassier would not have marked their pistols in the traditional "Eskadrons" order but rather continuous within the regiment. Is there any way to tell the difference between the Police style of grip marking and military? I'm not doubting Don's Police identification, it's just with the duplicate initials being used it does create a bit of a question. And following up on what Klaus wrote, would an entire regiment have 122 Luger pistols or would this number be too high?

Thanks again to all, this has been very interesting

Nick

That is interesting news that the Garde Kürassier Regiment had not stamped their Lugers according the stamping order. I can accept it because I remember Hans Rudolf von Stein very well as THE expert for German unit marks. I visited him some times because he lived only 35 miles from my home. He died about 20 years ago.
As we see on Jan Stills list are the numbers of the Erfurt Lugers in 1913 and 1914 close together. I do not know how many Lugers the Garde Kürassier Regiment got but the Bavarian 3. Chevaulegers got at the 9 Juno 1914 exactly 95, 6 for the staff and 19 for each of its 5 sqadrons. We can add 9 as supplement weapons, 7 for the replacement Sqadron, 21 for the field gendarmes who were issued to the regiment an15 for other non commissioned officers. All in all 147 Lugers were issued to the 3. Chevaulegers regiment.
The 5 Chevaulegers had 115 Lugers issued.
So it is possible that 141 Lugers for a guard regiment are not too many.
Thanks for sharing and the information. I have learned a lot today.

The marking on Nick's Luger has the identical font & sizes as G.K.128. illustrated in HWIS on p. 258. While there is no documentary proof, I continue to believe these grip strap markings are most likely those of the early Weimar-era Hessian Gendarmeriekorps and the chamber G.K. markings are Imperial-era markings of the same force for the reasons enumerated in HWIS. In addition, the inventory numbers on the grip strap markings are significantly larger than was specified in the 1909 instruction (2.1 mm). Even if the Garde Kürassier did not include squadron numbers, I suspect they would have used the specified font size for inventory numbers.

Don,
at first I thought that it would be a Police unit mark but with the information from H.R.v. Stein AND Jans list :
1913 Erfurt, sn 321a, marked G.K.29.
1913 Erfurt, sn 403a, marked G.K.47.
1914 Erfurt, sn 2515 marked G.K.74.
1914 Erfurt, sn 2446, marked G.K.122.
with the numbers so close together it think that it could really be a Imperial unit mark.
The numbers are too close together .....
Best regards
Klaus

On Luger gunboards is a thread with a 1918 DWM and G.K.140 stamp. This seems to be a police Luger because its magazines have no. 1 and 2. Don will be correct and these stamps are Police stamps.

Thanks Klaus, could you by chance post the link to the thread on Luger.gunboards? I couldn't find it when I searched and would like to see the discussion. I do find it an interesting coincidence that two 1914 Erfurt Luger's (with a production of only 7000) would have two different unit/police stamps that close, GK74 and GK122. I should have Don's book next week and I look forward to seeing the Luger pictured, but if the continuous numbering is correct for the Garde-Kurassier it raises an interesting question on any G.K. marked gun, unless there is a clear way to differentiate the Imperial mark from Weimer Police. And Don, I think I must me missing something on your sizing for the pistol number, if I look at 2.1mm with a ruler that seems smaller than the serial number under the barrel and I know I've seen unit marked pistols with those weapon numbers larger than the serial number. I know I'm probably missing something obvious here...

Again thanks all, a very interesting discussion, Nick

Hi Nick, Here's the link. Please note that this gun, unlike yours, is a 1918 dated DWM. Regards, Norm
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...-Unit-Markings

Nick, the 2.1 mm specification is for the size of armorer's dies to be used for weapon numbers on Prusssian military and later police weapons. The serial numbers were applied by the factory and I don't know what specifications existed for their sizes.

These specifications applied to Prussian weapons. The police of other states (such as Hessen) did not necessarily use these sizes.

Thanks Norm, I had looked last week on luger.gunboards and couldn't find anything, I didn't realize the thread had just started yesterday, I'm usually pretty good searching the forum for information and was surprised when Klaus referenced the thread. And thanks Don for the clarification, I was using the under barrel serial number for sizing reference only, I realize the barrel stamp and strap mark were applied at different times by different folks. Without having seen other Prussian markings it just seemed small when I was looking at the ruler when I know I've seen other pistols with that stamp larger than 2.1mm (not Prussian units though and that may be the cause of the confusion). I'll try to get a good measure of my numbers later today, I wish Jan had pictures of the other G.K. markings he references, it would be interesting to compare them, my pistol obviously saw police use with the sear safety so it would be logical to match with the Hessen mark but with the other pistols Jan lists to the Garde being 1913/1914 Erfurts (both pretty rare) it does make an interesting coincidence that this pistol would be so close (assuming the other Erfurt 1914 G.K.74 is correctly identified as Garde).

Thanks, Nick

Here are photos of three of the G.K. markings. The width of P08 grip straps is 15 mm so it is possible to scale these photos to get an appproximate size of the characters. My results are:

G.K.59. - Letters 4.2 mm, numerals 2.4 mm
G.K.122. - Letters 4.2 mm, numerals 3.2 mm
G.K.128. - Letters 3.3 mm, numerals 3.3 mm

I suspect the true sizes of the dies were 4.2, 3.1 and 2.1 mm, apparently standard sizes.

Clearly there is some inconsistency in the sizing. Only the G.K.59. marking is consistent with the Prussian specifications. However, I am very reluctant to believe that this marking is from a different organization than the other two. For example, Hessische Polizei (H.P.) markings are found in two sizes, the later markings being larger than the earlier ones.

I also think it is unwise to assume that the G.K.5.74. marking cited in the references suggests that the G.K.74. marking from Jan's list is from the Garde Kürassier. As Jan pointed out, the G.K.5.74. marking first appears in the 1909 Prussian instructions as a "sample" marking and has persisted through several subsequent books. There is no reason to believe that this exact marking appeared on a weapon. Although I don't know the source, the G.K.74. marking is almost certainly real. It is found on a 1914 Erfurt and postdates the instruction by at least five years and probably more like ten. The fact that the weapon numbers are the same is surely a coincidence.

Don,
Thanks for directing me to this thread. Based on what I remember seeing on the front strap of the pistol it looks very similar to the stamping above "G.K. 128". It appears that the firearm was blued after the application of the stamp leading some to believe that the gun was a reblue. However after removing the grips I found the typical areas in the white denoting rust bluing and normal looking ageing of the unblued areas. The grips may be replacements since they have no numbers or other markings. The stampings on the mags are more ornate looking in an almost Germanic script. They do not have the same unit marks. The holster was unlike anything I have ever seen for a luger. It was a tan or light brown color with multiple long straps. I could not find any makers marks. I will inquire on the holster as well. I will make a special trip to photograph the gun, mags and holster (if available) tomorrow.

David, welcome to this forum. Your gun will add further information to this thread. We are looking forward to seeing photos. It sounds as if you have an interesting rig. Please be sure to post a photo of the left side of the gun as well as the marking so we can see if it has a police sear safety.

If you don't mind saying, where in Texas are you located? I'm in Houston.

G.k.140
 

Don,
I am located in the North Dallas area. Sorry it has taken so long to get the information but the work thing keeps interfering with the play thing. Here are the photos taken today of the items. If you would be so kind as to indicate a history on the magazines as well, it would be greatly appreciated. I apologize in advance for the photos as I am not an expert. Any photos that need to be retaken or additional photos can be had after this weekend. I will be glad to help. Pictures of the toggle top and barrel stank so I did not include.

This has been a challenge. Server time out and refresh has deleted all of my image links. Some fun! Second time is the charm right?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3730

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3731

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3735

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3732

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3741

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3740

G.k.140
 

Now the mags:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3734

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3733

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3736

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3737

G.k.140
 

The holster:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3739

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3738

David, your photos are actually quite good.

I agree that the letters and numerals in this marking are both 3.1 mm as in G.K.128. Apparently, the GK was not a stickler for uniformity.

The mags are both from the Schutzpolizei of Hannover. The S.Hn. marking predates the S.H. but it is neat that they are matching #1 and #2 mags (HWIS Chapter 9).

The holster appears to be a shoulder holster. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge of holsters will comment.

A very interesting and eclectic rig!

Hi David, This is somewhat out of my field, but the two magazines appear to be Simsons (Eagle/6), which are quite collectible on their own. Regards, Norm

I agree with Norm. Both appear to have E/6 acceptances. Cool!

Hey Don,

Is it my bad eye's or do these three pistols with the G.K.1xx numbering all look a bit different? It would seem like pistols this close together in numbering would be pretty uniform even with the Police.

thanks, Nick

They do employ a variety of font sizes although the font styles appear the same. There is no basis for believing these pistols were all acquired by the GK at the same time. They may have been obtained at various times and marked by different armorers who either had different sets of dies or had no size specifications to work from.

I'll throw my into the mix here.

1914 Erfurt all matching #2224 including the mag's.

and on the grip strap in G.K. 71. and it does have the sear safety.

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the info. Any chance of posting a photo of the marking?

Hey Matt,

Would be great to see some pics, yours is within 200 of mine.

thanks, nick

G.k. 81.
 

For anyone interested in these G.K. unit marks -

G.K.81. has surfaced, and it is another 1914 Erfurt with a sear safety. It's an original 1914 manufacture, without the artillery notch. I believe the 1914 Erfurts that have the notched barrel are later put-together guns, not part of the original 7000 made in 1914.

I saw it on gunbroker recently, didn't win it.

- Geo

Thanks for posting Geo. Do you know the sn?