Luger paint color
 

Hi there!! :)

Just wondering what color paint was used on the WW2 basic Luger (don't know the real name, new to this and all).

Was it just black or more of a dark grey?

Please let me know the exact color it was!

If this sort of topic is here please let me know.

Thanks :D

Welcome to the forum.

Lugers were never painted. The WW2 pistols were salt blued, which gave a very deep Blue/Black and sometimes a deep plum color on certain parts.

Some post WW2 Lugers received "Parkerizing", which gives them a grey-green color, like our 1911's, M1 Carbines and Garand rifle's finishes. The original German manufacturers, however, never applied this type of finish.

Ugh, first post and a dumb question!

Well I figured since most guns are painted they would be.

There were 'some' guns painted, but the vast majority have and were blued or browned, now newer guns, such as glocks and such, i don't know what their coating is?

Welcome and be sure to check out the stickies on the New Collectors area and the FAQ, it contains a lot of information; this is not to discourage you from posting.

Ed

Not necessarily...It depends on what Parkerizing solution you use...

I do AR-15 barrels with ShooterSolutions 'manganese' solution, which gives a very-dark-gray to black color...

I believe I've seen pics here of Lugers (Portuguese contract?) that had original Parkerized finish...

Modern guns.. i.e., Glock, Beretta, use a nitrocarburizing process, Glock calls theirs "Tenifer" and Beretta calls theirs "Bruniton" but it is the same process.
Para USA and a few others use an IonBond process which electrically bonds coating with surface metal.
Good old fashioned hot salt blueing is not very common anymore with manufacturers due to the labor and time it takes to do it properly, but as an old school collector, I just cannot get fired up to the new finishes. Duracoat?? Don't get me started....

I remember reading in Anthony van der Linden's book on FN pistols..it was either the French or Belgians were the first to paint pistols for their Navy handguns. Provided a more durable finish for salt water use.

Does anyone know specifically what kind of finish was typically applied to Erma's diecast pistols, and how best to strip it off?

DP

David, The finish on those pistols always reminded me of the powder coating method...or perhaps an epoxy enamel?

Either of those might be a real bear to remove. A resilient finish of course would resist bead blasting, which I would prefer not to do, anyway. I've heard of some sort of "teflon" finish, but suspect that such was not used during the 60's. Powdercoating would by my current choice to replace the finish, as one series provides a thin-as-possible finish which is the most durable abailable; and its gloss can be adjusted to whatever I'd like.

I'm seeking a chemical approach as optimal, which would leave the original markings and surface texture completely alone. I may have to resort to careful sanding, but this may not adequately address the finish left in the markings. I'm hoping MEK, or similar, works.

I dont remember how I got the finish off, but I bet it was by bead blasting, I used a Brownells bake on spray finish. Not bad. This was circa 2003 so I dont remember all the particulars.
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/JSErmaBLt.JPG
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/JSErmaA1.jpg

Robert,

I'm pretty sure we can rule out ferric nitrocarburizing because it only works with ferrous metals, let alone that it's application temps would make me worry about fusing the work in the process. The IonBond process sounds like the ticket, potentially.

I'm thinking definitely not baked, everybody. Here's why:

Last night I immersed a broken Erma La.22 toggle in MEK based stripper overnight. I baked another at 450 deg. Neither action had any affect on finish or structure of the test pcs. I used a brass brush to check for any motion of this finish and it was still hard and tight. One pass of a steel edged scraper yields bare metal.

Jerry, I see what you're saying about the painted/coated look of the Ermas. I noticed that on the underside of the toggle scraps, it looked like such a coating might be there, but the topside of the part is smooth and glossy, likely buffed before finishing, and it has the same look as a blued finish on a steel gun. I think the "painted" look on the underside is a result of the surface texture of that part of the piece, preserved straight from the mold.

I'd also consider electroplating, like black chrome. My former Ithaca/SKB shotgun's barrel was finished that way, with white chrome inside. And there was an Ithaca/Erma connection in the '70's.

I'm hoping this thread lasts long enough to obtain a definitive answer. Apologies for highjacking the thread. The original topic sparked my initial question.

Ted, when I view photo #2 full size, I can see the texture left by the bead blasting, particularly on the bbl. Slick work, there, by the way. You've changed a pistol that just got home from a long, hard day to one that's has a s__t, shower and shave and is now sporting a dinner tux.

DP

I tried different chemicals when I restored my LA-22, but the only ones that would touch the finish also etched the metal. I got the impression that it's not a paint, but some form of chemical bluing. One thing that kind of works for finishing the pot metal is Birchwood Casey's "Aluminum Black". Some people obviously use this for refinishing display replicas made of similar metal, but it's very difficult to get a uniform finish and it also stinks real bad. You might be able to get decent results if you have enough patience with it, but I finally had to resort to blasting with fine aluminum oxide, then spraying with Brownell's bake on paint.

Still, the "semi-success" with Aluminum Black leads me to believe that there could actually be some form of "bluing" that can be used on this type of metal. One tip would be to search the model gun forums, seems like these guys struggle with the same problem and they may have a solution.

Would anodizing be a possibility? The aluminum frames on some of these inexpensive .22s look like anodizing.

The Post War P.38 have a pretty high gloss black finish on them, though the slides are matt parkerized. The frames are aluminum. I dont know if they used anodizing or not.

alanint,

I found a couple links so far about home anodizing. Looks like fun! And this might be the culprit--as far as finishing pot metal guns. it fits all the criteria: It can be any color. It offers corrosion and abrasion resistance (up to Rockwell 70!). It can be rubbed out for increased gloss. And any dimension it adds, typically up to 4 mils, dimension to the parts in a controllable way. Interesting...I already have some expendable parts for practice/testing, and most of the equipment and chemicals; just need to pick up some black and dark blue Rit dyes. What do you think?

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/anodize.shtml
http://www.defelsko.com/applications.../Anodizing.htm

DP

Anodizing does indeed look like fun. Wonder how it would work on steel..

Btw. I thought all Lugers where painted like this ;)
http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...1&d=1317497277 ;)

Urrppp!
 

"Btw. I thought all Lugers where painted like this..."

I just threw up in my mouth a little. I will never, ever, make fun of my "Krome Kannon" again! :eek:

That's a good question. The articles mention magnesium, titanium, and aluminum. Iron/steel has different chemical properties which I suspect may preclude anodizing as a finish for it. I do, however, wonder what process is used to make "aluminized steel" which was touted by Ford, I think, some years ago, in reference to body panels. I know it's also used in automotive exhaust systems. But I think if it were anodizing, the process/treated material wouldn't have needed a new name.

The aspects of anodizing similar to galvanizing--which is a very hot dip in molten zinc--are the layer formed between the outside skin of the treatment and the original material beneath, and the phenomenon of slight dimensional growth of a part so treated. This layer is like an alloy because the molecules of the base metal and those of the coating are intermingled. Curiously, the growth is accelerated in the galvanizing process in areas of the treated material with higher silica content. So, if you'd welded a joint with regular alloy steel filler and ground and sanded the joint smooth and flush, it will look as if someone had taken a caulking gun to the weld after it emerges from the dip tank.

DP

GySgt1811; It's indeed repulsive. I'm ashamed to admit that I'm the Bubba who desecrated it ;)


Don't forget to post some pictures of the result if you go ahead with anodizing those parts David :)

I believe they use a hot dip process, much like hot dip galvanizing (simply put: you dip it in molten metal). An automotive engineer told me that it often replaces zink on parts where the temperature varies a lot (like on exhaust systems), as the thermal expansion of aluminum is more similar to steel. The hot dip method is a bit "sloppy" and not really suited for gun parts where close tolerances are needed.

For guns, I'd say that any application of metal needs to be done chemically or by electrolysis to be able to control the thickness and to get a perfectly uniform coat. I have never seen any of those processes used for aluminum, but it's just another metal so I guess it can be done?

Urrp - 2
 

Steinar,

Making fun of a man's pistol is worse than making fun of his wife; one can get you punched, the other can get you shot. Please realize my comment was meant in fun (before you put a 9mm hole in my rear!). (Actually, another 9mm hole; but that's another story.) Your lovely Luger sure is...unique. :cheers:

Best Regards,

John

Ollie,

Yes, that figures. That would mean that one could aluminize a steel piece first, to establish an aluminum outer surface which could, in turn, be worked carefully down to a desired smoothness, and then anodized purple!

An explanation for why Al is used rather than Zn for repeatedly heated and cooled components may lie in aluminum's higher ductility than zinc. Aluminum is generally softer than zinc, more ductile/less brittle. It would tend to hang on during dimensional fluctuations of the steel below, whereas zinc would tend more to crack off.

Absolutely no hard feeling. It's ment to bring out a smile at the range, just by beeing ..unique :)

If you could apply a very thin coat of aluminum, yes. I don't know if that's possible with aluminum though. The hot dip process will more than likely leave a coat that's too thick, and with some build-up in the nooks and crannies. I'm comparing with the problems you can have when using other metal coatings and if you compare with nickel, the only process that gives you a uniform coat is electroless plating. Even electrolysis can cause problems, as it won't cover evenly on irregular shapes. Then again, there might be a process that allows you to get an aluminum coat that's good enough for guns.

And you're probably right about the ductility. It has been quite a while since I discussed this with the engineer, but the problem with zinc is that it can start flaking if the metal underneath is expanding. This could very well be a matter of ductility rather than thermal expansion rate.

Well, I guess if you hafta do something like this, at least it's well done. Personally, I like a little Krylon flat black rattle can.

:jumper:

The more I look at it, the more I realize that I created something ugly as a mud fence..
Some times there should be a "undo" buttom in life :)

I don't think that it would be that difficult to "undo" that paint scheme if you so desired.....a bit of stripper, and away it goes.