Where's the beef?
 

Hi guys,
I'd like to air out something that has been bothering me for a whole year.
I bought an Artilery Luger LP08 last yr. and the very first time I took it to the range, when I went to see my target, someone, the sneaky ***, dropped sand right on my pistol. The friends that were with me didn't say anything but I could tell fear within them.

Then, this January, it happened again. ....What's their beef could someone enlighten me? And yet, many thru the yr. would come and ask me about them, I also have a P38, an excellent shooting pistol. --Actually both pistols are excellent!
One fella walked over to me and said his dad sent him to come and find out what kind of pistols I was using since I was shooting 100 yds and hitting the target every time. And others even the park rangers would inspect them closely and make good comments and say things like 'I bet they have alot of history behind them, but then there are those that don't show or say anything except display a stoic face.

Now, what prompted me to post this, was on another thread the true experts on Lugers and other subjects, have corporate fire walls etc. Now I agree these guys are, imo, extremely knowledgeable and I respect and admire them and their expertise. Could whatever motives or prejudices underlie what has happen here? And what are some of them? I'd appreciate any input, :)
M,
who just appreciates and enjoys shooting good arms, with no politics or anything else.

let me get this right some one put sand on your guns at the range and your friends saw it? and then did nothing?>

You need new friends....

Some nut who hates "Nazi" guns??

...and a new shooting range.

Probably trying to find how it works in real world, verifying "Luger is an over-engineered pistol, has lots of potential, but could fail miserably in dirty battlefield" statement.....

Experiment is OK if it were his property. Try it "free" on yours without permission is a moral issue. And it's weird that your friend did not stop him.

I have to say, it's a bit strange that your friends not only didn't stop them but didn't at least tell you who did it. Such disrespect for someone else's property isn't appropriate anywhere much less at a gun range even if the potential for damage from a bit of 'sand' is relatively low. I've not had such problems myself, I usually get a lot of 'Wow, an honest to God Luger? We don't see many of those here.' but never any hostility. Very strange.

Sounds like the Envy and Jealousy of an immature mind to me.

That is awfully childish although if someone put sand on my gun I might have to put lead in there ass.

If this happened at either of our ranges. The perpetrator would be summarily and permanently banned from the range.

You do not mess with anyone's firearms, period. A hard and fast rule at both of our ranges.

That would be a reason to kick someone off our range as well (and lose their permit)

They'd be gone from our range too, especially if anyone handled or otherwise touched a firearm when people were downrange and the range was cold.

Marc

Our range isnt so much a range as defined by most. It is at the local conservation club and is simply a 100 yard path cut through the woods with a large backstop at the end. You pay $15 a year for a membership and can take 1 person or $25 a year and can take 4. There is no one there to enforce the rules that are posted which are few and mainly common sense. So if something were to happen you would probably end up with a not so nice confrontation. I've been there with some royal jerks before and have just left. Most of the time theres no one other than maybe 1 other person there and there usually friendly.

"let me get this right some one put sand on your guns at the range and your friends saw it? and then did nothing?> " ...Padredan

"You need new friends.... " ....PoliceLuger

---Guys, you missed my main point. I didn't want to write a novel but you see we all went to check our targets together at 100 yds. away looking, as we were walking, towards the targets. We weren't expecting the sneeky B*** to strike!
M

"...and a new shooting range" ...Douglas jr.

---There are two shooting ranges where I live, 60 miles apart, and it happened one on each.
M

"Probably trying to find how it works in real world, verifying "Luger is an over-engineered pistol, has lots of potential, but could fail miserably in dirty battlefield" statement.....

Experiment is OK if it were his property. Try it "free" on yours without permission is a moral issue. And it's weird that your friend did not stop him. " ....Alvin

---During cease-fire we are to be behind a 'blue line' behind our shooting benches. We walk betweent the benches to go out and check the targets. The Park Rangers watch like hawks that no one touches the bench for no reason at all and this is what I'm sure of that they walked, back from their close range with a handful of sand, while we were going to the 100 yd. target. And they returned by going beside our bench and just dropped the sand on it.
M

"I have to say, it's a bit strange that your friends not only didn't stop them but didn't at least tell you who did it. "
Michael
---E'nuf said in the other replies. I know you guys didn't know the situation since I didn't cover it"

"Such disrespect for someone else's property isn't appropriate anywhere much less at a gun range even if the potential for damage from a bit of 'sand' is relatively low. I've not had such problems myself, I usually get a lot of 'Wow, an honest to God Luger? We don't see many of those here.' but never any hostility. Very strange.'"

---You're right, there was no damage to either gun but it can sure get your B/P (blood pressure) up, :)
I also get the curious and the admires, esp., after telling them something about each pistol. That's why I relaxed a bit and let my guard down thinking bad attempts won't happen, but I was wrong, :(
M

"That is awfully childish although if someone put sand on my gun I might have to put lead in there ass." ...KMichael90

---The thought did occur to me, both times but I would do something only to defend myself if they carried their hate and prejudice towards me personally.
The thought that kept coming up was, "These idiots don't know that guns don't kill people, it's people that kill people."
M

KMichael90,
The first range goes up to 300 yds. and the second goes up to 300 also but if you join membership, you may use the other range up to 500 yds.
Oh, and believe me the Park Rangers do not put up with any crap, they are very, very strict. But there will always be some that can be awful, awful sneaky to do their wrongdoings, because of their hate and prejudices that reside within them.
M

Maybe you can set up a camera hidden in your range bag to run while you are away from the bench and catch the SOB. Or at the very least clue the rangers in to watch who goes near you bench.

This sounds like a single individual. Were any of the same faces present during both incidents?

I'm surprised the range itself does not have cameras on the firing line. This is becoming more and more prevalent.

Maybe you can set up a camera hidden in your range bag to run while you are away from the bench and catch the SOB. Or at the very least clue the rangers in to watch who goes near you bench. .....Curly1

---Good suggestions, thx., :)
M

If I found out who did that to my gun they would be my next
target.

Sounds like the Envy and Jealousy of an immature mind to me. ....Ron Smith
__________________
This sounds like a single individual. Were any of the same faces present during both incidents?

I'm surprised the range itself does not have cameras on the firing line. This is becoming more and more prevalent. ........Alanint
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---------Hi guys, to reply to both posts maybe this might give some-sort of picture.
I have suspicions on both incidents but no proof. The first one there was a Jewish looking old man being not too friendly towards me with his looks and avoidance of my presence right next to him. Btw. he was only shooting to 10 yds which it would fit that he would return while we were walking away to our targets.
After the incident, I approached him, actually thinking he did it, and told him what happened and asked if he saw anyone come thru or beside my bench? He said bluntly, 'no' and quickly turned his face the other way. So, I said that I sure would like to find this 'coward blank blank'.
He stated it would be foolish to do something like that for everyone has guns. Which I replied 'you're dam right everyone and I mean everyone has guns and I walked away thinking this might have clued him that I thought he was the sneaky B**
I thought maybe he still carried hate towards anything that reminded him of the war and what happened to his people, maybe.
============================

The second incident, there were two big, big guys, maybe 300 lbs. each, wearing black clothes, pants, shirts w/Gothic stuff and short, short hair. They were shooting AK-47's shooting at 25 yds.
Well, I watched them for a while and they were shooting absolutely terrible. They were missing by 8 ft. sometimes, but I kept quiet since it was none of my business. And after a while I thought maybe it might be friendly if I suggested a hint. To know where the impact or splash is hitting helps to compensate, so, I told them that they were hitting way high and one replied, 'it doesn't matter we're just shooting for the help of it. And I replied, 'Aaa...gotcha have fun.'

They did notice my shooting groups were all around the bull-eye's. Then I moved the targets to 100 yds. and that's when that young fella, I mention in another post that was sent by his dad, to ask what kind of pistols was I using because his dad noticed I was on target every time at 100 yds. using pistols. I'm sure the two fat guys next to me surely heard us talking.

Here is when the sanding happen. I went to the restroom and when I returned sand was on my gun, btw, I was by myself this time, but I just acted like nothing happen and brushed it away and continued shooting to kinda let them know ( or whoever did it) it didn't affect me giving the notion that what they did 'failed'.

Not too soon after that they moved their target to 100 yds.
About a half-hour later, one of them, walked up and fired a full clip and said loudly, "That's my pattern!" and both of them left, even leaving their target out there. ---This is where I felt something was bugging them. Maybe jealousy and they felt inferior.

Later when I was leaving, I went to retrieve my targets and noticed their target, lol, there were only 3 hits on paper, he had missed all except 3 shots....And yes, 'That was his pattern' :roflmao:
I brought both targets, mine and theirs, back since I knew the Park Rangers would have to go out there and bring theirs back. ---I did it for the Park Rangers not for them, :)
So, my suspicion was that they were the culprits.
M

If I found out who did that to my gun they would be my next
target. ....KitKat

---LOL, believe me I too felt that way for a second....or two, or three :)
M

My favorite Range story is the day I set up one early Saturday morning and saw a friend three tables away. In walks this "macho man" with his long suffering wife in trail.

They took the two tables between us. This guy is literally screaming at her to do this and that and berating her terribly for each percieved infraction of his explicit instructions.

Mr Man pulls out an M1 Carbine and an AR15 and sets one on each table. His wife starts off with the Carbine and Mr. Big Shot the AR. A smile crossed my face when I realized that me and my buddy three tables down were shooting the same calibers. I leaned way back in my chair and looked over at him. He was looking back at me with a Cheshire cat smile. He was thinking the same thing. He had a scoped and bipoded Kimber .22 Bolt gun and I had a Scoped Galil in .308 on a bipod. Since she had the Carbine it was my turn first. They were shooting at 25 yards so it was child's play.

The poor wife was missing the paper altogether but when the line was called she had an enviable, tight group, almost all in the "X" ring, of .30 caliber holes. She squealed with delight while hubby practically burst an artery.
After replacing their targets, (she wanted to keep hers), he furiously swapped guns with her, as the Carbine was certainly more accurate. It was my friend's turn on center stage. At the end of the shooting string, she had an even tighter group, center "X", of .22 caliber holes, (she was on the bench right next to my friend).
Mr. Macho nearly hit the ceiling. They packed up immediately and left. My friend and I broke up laughing as soon as they were out of earshot, although it was sobering to think later that we had probably earned her a beating that night.

" My friend and I broke up laughing as soon as they were out of earshot, although it was sobering to think later that we had probably earned her a beating that night. " ...Alanint

---Maybe not if he re-thinks of her target groups of the day, :)
M

A coward like that would lie in wait for conditions to be in his favor.....

Sir, Not to tell you your buisness, but I wouldn't leave my gun lying around unattended, while I went to the restroom. That's asking for it.

Dave

Brush it off as a mild encounter with a deranged moron. Two ways to prevent people monkeying with your pistol. Put it under cover or in a case while you go down range or leave one of your buddies back on guard duty. I learned in the Military..NEVER leave your weapons unattended . I wear a shoulder holster to the range and take my Luger with me where ever I go.

I have a $5 hip holster that I stick my 1911 in when I go downrange and I just carry the luger along. Though so far this year I have yet to encounter anyone but myself using the range. I must be the only person dumb enough to go out in subfreezing temps to shoot.

I agree with Jerry. I never leave a firearm unattended. I don't fear that anyone would mess with it, just steal it. It would be so easy for someone to pick a weapon up and be gone while you are in the butts--especially a handgun. Just my $0.02.

Neil

We learned years ago when shooting on the outskirts of Piccatiny Arsenal in New Jersey to ALWAYS leave an armed buddy behind on the line while out setting up targets.

I got tired of watching groups of "undesirables" show up there with ONE Mini 14 they all chipped in for at Sears, or Walmart, or K Mart, (yes, it was that long ago). These duffuses ended up shooting at the insulators on the high power lines over time, (Our "shooting pit" was along a high power line trail up the mountain behind Piccatiny Arsenal) that it was eventually closed to everybody.

Unless I am absolutely confident of where I am, (and I shoot very expensive Title 2 Firearms), we always leave a "minder" back at the firing line.

Vandalism, period, makes no sense to me. Theft does. I have something someone likes and for whatever reason he feels that he may not be able to acquire it on his own so he takes it. That makes sense to me. However, to deliberately abuse or ruin something that does not belong to me in an attempt to make it so that nobody can derive any pleasure from it is mindless. I could live to be 100 and I will still not understand vandalism. I, and I suspect many other members of this Forum, was raised to respect the property of others more than my own. This act was uncalled for and unjustifiable.

When I was in middle school, one day the teacher was so angry because a kid (not me) inserted a match into the classroom's lock hole. When the teacher tried to open the lock with the key, the key pushed that match further and further inside. Finally, the school had to damage that lock to open the door.

"This guy's activity hurts others, without benefiting himself".

We, as kids, were very happy to hear this story in the boring school life though.

I once had a friend who owned an auto repair shop where they also inspected autos. I took my almost new Mercedes there for inspection. He had another person do my inspection because he didn't want to touch it. It was German and he despised Germans as he had served in WWII but, not in Germany. I later took him a 1900 AE that I was so proud of - he was a gun nut - but he wouldn't touch it. Several months later he told me that my car was the prettiest car he had ever seen and he and his wife went to buy one like mine but he couldn't make himself buy one for reasons already stated.
Some people have such stupid hatred that they do bad things and say bad things.

"I once had a friend who owned an auto repair shop where they also inspected autos. I took my almost new Mercedes there for inspection. He had another person do my inspection because he didn't want to touch it. It was German and he despised Germans as he had served in WWII but, not in Germany. I later took him a 1900 AE that I was so proud of - he was a gun nut - but he wouldn't touch it. Several months later he told me that my car was the prettiest car he had ever seen and he and his wife went to buy one like mine but he couldn't make himself buy one for reasons already stated.
Some people have such stupid hatred that they do bad things and say bad things. " .........CAP black
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---I totally agree. I think the old man fit this description.
Btw, I've had a '74 Porsche 914 (German of course, :) for over 35 yrs. that I upgraded to a 916. Put flares and wide tires and overhauled the engine, even though it didn't need it at 49,000 mi., since parts for the engine are still available and affordable. Also, rear spoiler and front air dam, etc. It has given me great service and pleasure to drive. Can you imagine the $ it has saved me not having to buy a new car after 3 or 4 yrs.
People, strange but even little kids look and get others to look at it, wave, ask, admire it almost every time I take it out. I only put about 500 mi. per yr. and it still does the 150 mph. --Not that I've driven it at that speed but by the rpm's and speed it figures it can do it.

Not to stray away from the subject too far, I have only had one man, in 35 yrs. say he would not buy a 'rice burner' because of what they did to his uncle in the war (prisoner and tortured).
I asked him what was his uncle doing during the war when he was captured, and he, after some persuasion for an answer, replied he was a bomber. ---I didn't say it to him but in war they don't treat you well if you are killing their side. That's war.
I haven't seen any prejudice bias faces concerning the car. But....I certainly have concerning German weapons.
M

I got dirt on a gun left behind me on a table at the range once. Turned out it was from a squirrel knocking trash off the awning rafters. At first I just couldn't understand what I was looking at, then more fell on my head. That had to be one deaf squirrel.
Marc

Sir, Not to tell you your buisness, but I wouldn't leave my gun lying around unattended, while I went to the restroom. That's asking for it............Dave
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A coward like that would lie in wait for conditions to be in his favor..... Alanint
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I have a $5 hip holster that I stick my 1911 in when I go downrange and I just carry the luger along. Though so far this year I have yet to encounter anyone but myself using the range. I must be the only person dumb enough to go out in subfreezing temps to shoot......KMichael90
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I agree with Jerry. I never leave a firearm unattended. I don't fear that anyone would mess with it, just steal it. It would be so easy for someone to pick a weapon up and be gone while you are in the butts--especially a handgun. Just my $0.02. .........Neil
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Dave, Dave, KMichael90, Neil,
Wow, how different your ranges operate compared to here! Here one cannot carry a loaded weapon at all into the range or during in or out. They check you upon entering and signing in. Before cease-fire all, and I mean all weapons must be cleared and open bolts/breaches and each individual bench is checked by a ranger.
During cease-fire, you absolutely cannot be near or touch anything on the bench, or pack or unpack any gun, except pass between the benches to go to check or move targets, and while doing this one cannot carry any kind of loaded or unloaded weapon. Not, :) even Lugers KM-90.

Now, anyone can pass any bench they want going or coming back from ck'ing your targets. Some short-cut to put their target holders while preparing to leave.

When I went to the restroom, I thought it would be safe since it was during cease-fire and as Alanint said, " A coward like that would lie in wait for conditions to be in his favor." ---It would be very hard to detect someone who walks by and slyly drops the sand on the weapons. This would only take a second and he may be looking for witnesses the whole time. He doesn't have to see where he drops it for his hand is only inches away from his target.

And believe me the Park Rangers, approximately one every five benches plus the ranger on a high platform who loudly yells over the PA, will get the attention of anyone who violates this rule. Mostly new comers are the ones who think it is ok to just get close to their bench without touching anything or get something safe like glasses, etc. No they can't there is a blue line behind the benches about 8 ft. away we have to wait for everyone to return before the line becomes 'hot' again.

Both ranges run 7 days a week and during the wk. usually have around 60 to 100 shooters. And during the weekend, about 200 to 300.
M

---Rs, it probably makes sense to them because they took pleasure in doing that. There are some that enjoy 'sick thrills.'
M