Power of P-08 ammo in the 1920's
 

In another forum a guy with a very nice 1920's commercial P-08 was warned not to shoot it because metallurgy wasn't what it is now. The point was also made that one might happen upon higher strength ammo.

I maintain that the materials used by DWM, and the heat treating processes, were probably state of the science of the day, and that the strength of the action unless degraded by corrosion, fire, or battering should be almost identical to the day it came out of DWM.

It's the guns that are made today that I have my doubts about, there are some really poor materials in many guns made today because people can't seem to tell the difference between Zamak and medium carbon steel. :grr:

Does anyone know what the 9MM and 7.65MM standard ammunition power was compared to what we buy over the counter today? I would guess it's not as powerful, because of liability fears, except for +P stuff.

I know of no side-by-side comparisons to new vs. old ammo, and even close comparisons today may not be accurate to the pressures experienced with the same ammo. 90 years ago.
What I'd always look for is the least powerful ammo that will correctly function the pistol, and call it good.
Like you said, the +P stuff is to be avoided, as well as some military SMG ammo.
And I agree that if you have a nice Luger thats value is based on the fact that it is 100% matching numbers, it probably isn't a good decision to shoot it. Parts do break today, just like they did back then.
dju

this got me to thinking and looking at somethings. Looking to find some low power 9mm ammo that will function. or close to the pessure of the earlier military loads.I haven't reloaded in years, i have fired the two lugers i own and i am now thinking i really do not need to be. Take a look at the two pics, first was when i bought it and second after about three mags full of remington umc 115 gr, big difference there, others are calling it a luger fingerprint. one thing for i am going to be really cautious from now on, there has to be some moderen ammo out there that is safe to fire/thanks

Unless there is actual metallurgical deformity, this is a normal action of firing.

That said, when I find a luger without any wear there, it makes me think it has been reblued.


Ed

Use standard velocity ammo like the Winchester 115gn white box low cost ammo you can find in Walmart.

Don't use something that is rated as "NATO". It's higher power and higher velocity.

The Remmington ammo is apparently about 50fps hotter than the Winchester.

One thing to verify is that the recoil spring is the right one for the model Luger you're shooting, and that it's in good condition (consider a new Wolff replacement for the Luger you'll be shooting regularly).

You can get a range of recoil spring strengths in a kit as well...

Marc

Marc, what i have found is the white box winchester i have is marked nato, is there another white box winchester?

I am not Mark, but yes, there is a standard WWB ammo. I have had good luck also with 115gr FMJ PMC ammo, and the Federal Champion 115gr FMJ. All of this ammo is low cost "range" ammo, and I have no qualms about shooting it in my 9mm Lugers.

thanks, i have some 115gr pmc and a good bit of federal american eagle, i will look for winchester white box not marked nato, thanks again

Hi:

Here is an answer to your specific question.

German Army loads for the 9mm, were, through WWII, 123 gr. bullet at 1,076 fps. This was the standard brass cased load for pistol usage, not to be confused with the steel cased iron core bullet ammo used in the SMGs.

The standard NATO load of today is 117 grs at 1,260 fps.

You can do the math, but beware of shooting modern "HOT" ammo through your vintage Luger.

Sieger

outstanding, many thanks

Here's the info on the Winchester:

Manufacturer: Winchester

UPC: 020892201989

9mm Luger Winchester USA Handgun Cartridge, 115-Grain Full Metal Jacket Bullet, 50 Rounds Per Box

362 ft/lbs. energy muzzle
1071 fps at 50 yards
293 ft/lbs. at 50 yards

Remington and others have similar.

MArc

The powder for the original 9x19mm cartridge was slower burning than what is used in commercial ammunition today. It operates the action more efficiently than contemporary ammunition, which is where the myth that Lugers require "hotter" ammunition comes from.

--Dwight

For all you shooters of 115 gr loads- Does anyone else find that their Luger's point-of-impact is lower than the point-of-aim? I too use the WWB 115 gr bullets, in both FMJ and HP. I've been curious about trying a 124 gr load, to raise the POI, and have been looking into the various manufacturers' published velocities. I read that the original 9mm Luger load was a 124 gr bullet at around 1070 fps. The POI with my Luger is lower than the POA, and don't want to change the front sight.
It shoots consistently, however, enough to shoot 4 shots into a cloverleaf shape at 8 yards, all overlapping.
Thanks.

You guys got me reassessing my own loads, My target was 1200FPS, and there's no reason for it! I load for plinking/target shooting, and it makes sense to load for minimum function power.

" Does anyone else find that their Luger's point-of-impact is lower "

Mine was the opposite with the same Win white box. Indoor range with the target ~25 feet. Good grouping but six or more inches high. Only shot a few rds as I found the pistol was missing the locking bolt spring. Oops........

Hi:

Somewhere, I remember reading the actual distance the Lugers were sighted for. I believe it was 25 meters.

Can anyone verify this?

Thanks!!


Sieger

I use 115 gr White Box Winchester and am always 3 to 5 inches high at 25 yds with many Lugers.
I am shooting at 5000 feet elevation if that makes any difference.
Bob

Hi Sieger, P08's were originally sighted for 100 meters and had a front sight blade 5.0mm tall. In 1914 this was changed to 50 meters by fitting a blade 5.5mm tall. Most of the earlier guns were retrofitted with the taller blade at the same time as they had hold-opens added. Regards, Norm

The 'Nato' marked 9mm may have 124 gr. bullets.

In any event the white box 115 grain 9mm is marked with the Manufacturer's Item number of "Q4172"

Originally such was referred to as "Q" loads, later the white box.

That is what I believe you are looking for.

Good thing I saw this!! The only white box I saw at Wal-Mart was the NATO ammo, Now I have to go back and buy the correct ammo! I wonder if it makes a difference if the Luger was used by the VOPO? Did the East Germans make any changes to allow for "hotter" rounds? I know that my firing pin was replaced by them....

Lugers were initially sighted in at 50 meters, during the last production years that changed to 25.

Prior and during WWII nitrocellulose powders were used on all sides. This particular two component gun powder by today's standards would be considered slow to medium burning rate powder. (remember the flash at the muzzle)
Today's modern powders are fast and too snappy for Lugers. This is where most of the problems with P08 originate. Weak springs and out of shape other parts of P08's contribute even more to incorrect functioning of the Lugers. If you reload start with proper burning rate powder. Then trouble shoot other components of the device. Using famous white W box 9mm is not way to go with P08's. 124 grains jacketed and slow to medium BR is proper way.
Tweaking a Luger to the off the shelf ammo of choice may be doable but something will give.

Hi:

Though some may consider us insane, I agree with your statement above completely!!

Here are some excellent powders I've used to create some outstanding handloads.

FMJ Loads: SR 4756 and Power Pistol

Lead Loads Accurate #5

All are with 115 to 125 grain bullets.


Sieger

Man this place is full of great information! Thanks once again guys. I've been running the white box Walmart 9mm thru mine and so far so good with zero problems. Now I must add all my springs are brand new so that probly helps things to work smoothly.

as for the sighting in of the weapon the distance it was sighted changing from 50 to 25 meters would explain everything! I thought I was going crazy as my original "G" upper and barrel seemed dead on at the range but the replacement 1913 parts seemed to shoot high now I know I just need to aim a tad lower due to where it was sighted originally. Thanks everyone.

The Winchester target/range ammo being referred to in this thread is in a white box with the word "WInchester" in RED letters and "USA" printed in red letters inside a small circle surrounded by stars. It is 115 grain FMJ.

The NATO ammo is also in a white box with the word "NATO" printed in BLACK letters. It is 124 grain FMJ.

Hope this helps. For what it's worth my 124 grain reloads seem to match POA and POI better in my Brownig Hi-Power. Can't supply any feedback on my Luger as it is 7.65mm.

Sieger, do you have the specs on the 1920's version of 7.65mm ammo? I know it used a 93 grain FMJ bullet but what was the muzzle velocity in feet per second?

I have a 30 Luger Browning Hi Power and have found the Hornady 90 grain XTP(it's a JHP in ,309 diameter) loads well. Also have some 93 grain LRN bullets that have some good loadings. I wanted to ocmpare the original ammo specs to these loads. Thanks.

1934-37 military specifications for the 9mm mention an 8 gram bullet, with a velocity of 320 meters/second.
Which is basically within the specification range of both Winchester white-box and S&B 124grain.

Mauser did extensive testing of .30 luger and 9mm rounds when looking for a suitable baseline testing product for their 1970s production. They didn't see much problems either. In fact, they complimented Winchester with the quality of their 9mm rounds and the consistency of its performance. They opted for using Norma 9mm rounds for testing, as they were consistent and a bit hotter than the other rounds (Geco, Winchester, Swiss army, Swedish army).

The Norma 30 cal always performed better for me in my Lugers than the Winchester or Remington. I've never had the pleasure of trying the 9mm.

Hi:

From the original German sources I find the following for the 7.65mm:

DWM Production (Pre WWI)

Vel. at 33 feet, 1,150 fps (350 m.)

Mauser Produced Pistols (Pre WWII)

Vel. (unlisted test distance) 1,188 fps (361 m)

I hope this info helps!!

Sieger

Sieger, what slow to medium burn rate powders do you recommend for 7.65mm loads? Thanks.

IMHO the work NATO stamped on many boxes of ammo, just equates to 9x19mm or 9mm Parabellum, not the weight of the bullet or the power load. TH

Tom:

Please name a few brands and types that are not the HOT NATO spec. rounds, as all on the current market that I know of are the hot stuff (121 grains at 1,260fps or so)

Sieger

Hi:

The same.

Sieger

Good to know that I am not alone in this cruel world.:cheers: