Looking for 1905 45 ACP Luger blueprints
 

Hi,
I have been thinking about making a small batch of 45 ACP 1905 Luger reproductions.

For the longest time i have been looking for a set of blueprints or a one of the modern copies to make blue prints from.

Any one has a source of one or the other ?
I know it's a long shot ... but if I do not start looking, i will never be able to for-fill my dream.

I am willing to make generous compensation for a complete set of blue prints or a gun to make them from.

Also what do you think about a market interest of such item ?

Thanks.

Mike Krause in California has been making exact replicas of the .45 Luger for a number of years. He had access to, and reverse engineered, the .45 Luger formerly in the Aberman collection. I suspect that Mike has made engineering drawings for his production but I doubt he would be willing to share :) (but I could be wrong!). I purchased his production serial number 7 from him quite a while ago. I don't know how many he produced or if he is still making them

1906 45 ACp copy
 

Do you still have the item that you purchased from him ?
Can we arrange something that will let me reverse engineer what you have ?

Eugene,
I still have it. I am a bit reluctant to ship around a $15,000 item, and would not do so without Mike's permission. He has proprietary interest in the design. You might contact him directly to get his feelings about sharing. His website is http://www.krausewerk.com/
Ron

Talking to Mike
 

Thanks for the tip and for the link.

Just got of the phone with Mike.
He told me he is at the end of the production of his Luger 45s he is done about 50.

He also is willing to sell me blue prints for only 2.5 K.
Witch sounds very reasonable to me.

I visit San Francisco every 2 years and i may visit his shop,
he actually offered some over run parts he may have for the 45.

So, may be i will have my dream after all.

I was going to make some 45 navy guns as well as carbines.

Just need to scope out the market for it ...

Glad you were able to get through to Mike! Hopefully everything will work out for you. I wish you the best of luck.:thumbup: Man, I would love to have a .45 carbine!...but I am well past the time I could afford such a jewel (retired fixed income and all that :))
Ron

$2500??? :eek:

(Where's my defibrillator..."I'se comin', Weasy"...) :D

Try finding a set
 

Well,
I got two options
buy a 20K gun and reverse it myself
or by blue prints for 2.5K and save some time.

If anyone has a cheaper way of selling me blue prints, they can have first dips on the 45 Lugers I will make ;0)

If you start making payments now , you way be 1/2 to the total amount by the time i am done with a first batch of guns.:)
I am thinking 2-3 years from the moment i get blue prints.

Hi Eugene,

Wow, hopefully you can get this going. I don't know if I could ever afford a .45 ACP Luger but I should start saving now. ;) I imagine there must still be some interest in these!

For what it is worth, I think $2.5K is pretty reasonable for a working set of drawings for a .45 Luger. A darned sight better than trying to work one up from scratch, plus the dimensions are spot on for the original DWM gun. If one is serious about producing these guns, it is a sound investment in my opinion.

1st taker for 45 ACP
 

Good, I got a first taker on the 45 ACP Luger.

I am thinking to get this project going we need 10-15 clients,
that will agree to pre-orders at reduced cost.

And 50% bases down payments with 2 year waiting list,
And we will be in business.

I will be taking orders for army issue , navy 45 ACP or a carbine in 45 ACP.


For such a amount we will have to make legal contracts, signed by both sides ...

Any takers on this ... please let me know.

Let's see where the road will take us.

Thanks.

Just as an afterthought, at $2.5K I do not think it would be unreasonable to stipulate exclusive rights to the blueprints/measured drawings. That way you would eliminate competition unless you further licensed the drawings, and if for some reason you could not go into production you could recoup your investment in the drawings if someone else wished to take up the project.
If you really want to attract potential buyers, you need to establish a price point for the three variations. This will require realistic estimation of production costs and realistic production time. Investors need to have some assurance they will be guarenteed a gun as specified in a timely manner. I think a two to three year lead for production is reasonable. To be informed after two years on a waiting list that it will be another two years until delivery would not be a good marketing practice.

Why not making some 20-shot conehammers, I bet there is a market for it, as long as the it looks great and the price is right. (or semi-auto version of Astra 902, probably that will be easier).

Why not Borchardts??? I'll send in a couple grand as down payment on a 2 year production Borchardt... :)

...And I am serious... :thumbup:

I'm interested, what do you think a ballpark figure would be? Also a matching snail drum would be pretty sweet!

As a one man shop I know it is possible to bite off a chunk too large to chew...Usually large projects require more man hours..from what you have explained about your work load.. how will you make this work? Quit your day job?

Most collectors/shooters would be interested in an affordable .45 Luger..IF one could be economically produced there WOULD be a market. Make no mistake about that. Two things would concern me if I were involved..Price point and time to produce. Both would have to be right or you will cause more trouble to your enterprise than you think.

The major problem in producing a .45 Luger is the frame. That will be NO small task even with the best drawings.

Even if you produce a pistol it HAS to work. I have heard rumors that not all of the MK .45's do. I could be wrong and won't know for sure untill Ron goes to the range with his!

I wish I could read German. This sight is pretty interesting www.waffen-werle.de looks like they are trying to mass produce a 45.

I would be leery about sending 1/2 down and a 2 year wait on a possible project.

Make one first and show people it exists.

No offense, but you have negative feedback on this forum and Jan Still's forum for being unresponsive and slow in turn around.


Ed

(Where's my defibrillator..."I'se comin', Weasy"...) :D[/QUOTE]


I hope you do realize I laughed for an hour!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stdi-1tIUhM&feature

Thanks for the input
 

Thanks for input everyone,
let me address all the points that where listed:

1. Price points:
Standard 1905 45 ACP will be around $12k-13k
Navy Model 1905 45 ACP will be around $13k-14k
Artillery Model 1905 in 45 ACP will be $14k-15k
Carbine 1905 45 ACP will be $17k-18k

Multiple orders will get 5% discount
FFL orders will get 10% discount

2. Timing: I do have a machinist working for me now. He is helping me out when i need some small parts made, that can not be found. Artillery barrels is one of them. He is just not a full time with me now. But that can change if i find more for him to do. I do have a shop with industrial tooling. So making parts is not a problem.
I am an engineer by trade , so i can estimate production cost and time. I am thinking that withing a year time i will have all parts that a re needed made.
Then it will take about a 2-3 weeks for the first gun to show up.
And the last will show up withing a 1 year . So i take it full production cycle for 20 guns is 2 years with one man working full time on it.. I hire a second machinist for a second shift on the mill, i can cut production by 30% or so.

I know almost everything there is to know about luger functioning, so I am sure i can make then work reliably. Or at least as good as original was working. ;0)

If you been on my site and have seen or purchased carbines from me, you know that metal work is done right.

I made some small parts for 1900 Model including triggers and extractors.

My plan is to do the same as Mike K did, and first production gun will go to Guns and Ammo for a show and tell.

My press , or bed press anyways ... is all about time lines.
Find someone complaining about quality and then we will talk.

There will be a legal notarized contract, that will secure down payment funds and timeline.


I just need small amount of people willing to invest there money in to a a dream.

And I will get my machinist busy full time.
I an even report on the progress made.

And yes the frame is the hardest, and i will start with that, because if that is done the rest is not a problem.

I think it will take 4 month to produce 20 frames , so all of initial investors will know when the frames are done.

3. As far as Cone hummers and other guns, it's interesting that it came up so quickly. As I was thinking exactly same way. Every one reproduces revolvers , but no one goes for auto reproductions. I'd take on Mannlichers , Cone and other turn of the century guns.

But i think Luger 45 ACP is so iconic , that it's the only gun that people will pay 15k and up for .

All and all i see support as well as some natural skepticism. I hope love for collector guns will overcome the fear.

Because as crazy as i am , i will not be able to do this in a vacuum.

By the number of responses in one day, I take it it' s a hot topic.

Thanks.

Leery once ...
 

I think for the leery once we can arrange something like that:
Frames wil be done first, as a hardest part. it takes 4-5 moth for 20 of them to be made. So Let's say to get the frames going, $1000 down payment will work.
Then another $1000 to produce the 20 slides.
After the two main parts are done , and they are looking good , i will take a full down payment.

If something does not work out or timelines are slipping, leery once will be able to opt out from the project without penalty.. and without an option to come back in it at the advertised price.

We will make it work for everyone. Skeptics are welcome, I like the challenge. Judgmental once need not apply. ;0)

2nd taker
 

Good a second person knowing what they want out of life.

I think a snail drum is a bit hard .
I do not have a press and that drum is all stamped.

Making mags will be a challenging as it is.

I may contact Mac-Gar to make the mags, as they are doing such a good job with the 9mm mags. I think they are the best on the market.

But 2 people willing to start the project is 10% of the people i need to get it going.

You have a point, there.
But i think that if any one as crazy as i am, we can team up and split the production instead. Competition in this field is next to nothing... I welcome it.

Eugene..that it's the only gun that people will pay 15k and up for .

You must realize that Mike Krause has had .45 Lugers for sale for many years. The 15 K you so easily speak of is exactly why only 50 or so were ever sold by him. All of the 15 K buyers are accounted for. I would assume this is why Mike is no longer producing them at that price.
To sell ANY type of .45 Luger the price must be whittled down to much less than 15. It MAY NOT be possible to get it low enough to sell to the blue collar masses.
20 frames in 4 months? Unless you have the services of GE, Raytheon or Boeing you may NEVER produce a frame on your own much less 5 a month.
Before you speak of money down and contracts...I would think it through a little more.
I just happen to be privy to another effort along this line and after MANY thousands of dollars the .45 Luger frame is what stopped the project DOA.

Jerry,
The thing that killed the effort you are referencing was an attempt to use an advanced form of injection molding that would have required virtually no, or very little, finish machining. The tolerances required for such a process could not be achieved with the molds produced, even after several expensive tries. The process hoped to bring down the production costs to the point where a .45 Luger could have been produced in the $3000-$5000 range. That was an ambitious goal, but I think a price point in the range of $8,000-$10,000 may be marketable. Much more than that may be a hard sell.

Using CNC machining and extensive hand finishing like Mike Krause employed can produce probably 3 or 4 acceptable frames a month with concerted effort. I may be over estimating the effort required, but I agree that 20 frames in 4 months is perhaps optimistic. However, I am not in the business and Eugene is. It is his decision and that is why I encourage him to exercise every consideration for objective analysis.

It is his windmill at which to tilt. It only behooves all parties involved to go in to it with open minds and a friendly exit strategy if necessary. Those of faint heart and shallow pockets (me!) need not participate!:)

Why not contact Bob Morrison, the President of Taurus in Miami Lakes, Florida? They have extensive experience with injection molding metal parts and were producing parts for many of the knock-off 1911 pistol manufacturers out there until I talked him into producing their own. I have not spoken to Bob in some time, but the project might intrigue him.

Hi,

Which machine tools are you using to start such a "Hardcore"
project ......
I am working on a very similar project, just as an hobby, and
I can tell you even with our tools we have in our day´s it
is not a "piece of cake" building a parabellum pistol ......

best regards

Otto

20 frames in 4 month
 

When i say 20 frames in 4 month,
I am talking about completing milling operations in 4 month and having 20 85-90% complete frames in my hands.
Several operations will need to be done by hand, same way the old lugers where done.

If i fail with a manual mill, I have a friend with a CNC shop, that may be able to do it quicker.

The mill i have a 3 ton, industrial machine, that is capable of much more then frames.

The person working for me, has experience building honeycomb satellite telescopes that are still in space today. He worked in the experimental machine shop that had contracts like that.
It was 30 years ago... but he is good.

Yes it's not going to be a piece of cake, and i may attempt to make one frame first, just to see what type of problems will come across.

Jerry said exactly what I was thinking. $15K 45ACP Luger's market has saturated. Another wave of supply won't create more buyers unless the price is way lower.

Food for thought. A friend of mine set up a first-class small factory for high end trap guns years ago. A great business until money got so tight, then the customer list shrunk. The last I knew he had a complete manuracturing operation that was not being used to capacity, and he was making accurate parts from original drawings for the 1911 Colt century guns offered by some high-end gun shops.
The point I am making is that there is a wealth of talent and machinery out there should one seek to use outside providers for certain parts, be it frames, side plates, or whatever.
dju

I think 3k-5k is not possable price point.

As i estimate production cost of 20 guns at about 2 years.

That translates in about :
100K of labor costs
20K or rent
10K of bills
15-20K of material and tools
All and all making it a $150K project.

If i market them at 10K each then we talking about 25K of profit a year.

That's not much to speak off, considering the unknown factors of the project.

So the 15K price comes from the fact that, i will only find 10-12 clients willing to prepay, the rest of guns will wait for the takers.

My math may be off 15-20% one way or the other.

Hi Eugene, I hate to be the one to throw cold water on your ambitious project, but as one business man to another, I have to tell you that you have a very serious image problem. If one does a search on LugerMan on either forum, the words "theft", "fraud", "attorney" and "police" keep cropping up. I'm prepared to believe that you are an honest fellow, a fine craftsman and that all these complaints were due to a failure to communicate, but I think that your expectation that you would find "10 to 12 clients willing to prepay", is wildly optimistic. Best regards, Norm

constructive skeptical comments are welcome
 

Norme,

Well there is some truth in your words.
When you deal with people it's hard to stay on everyone's good side.

out of 500+ projects i have done over the years. I see 3 or 4 bad feedback, of people that are tired of waiting.

I can understand them.

But i address all that in my previous posts.

On the other side. If i do not take a down payment from YOU,

Are you willing to pay $17K for a complete project that is ready to go ?

If the answer is you do not care for it one way or the other....

Then it means you are just not interested all together.

Bad rep goes two ways .... if i had a client that was tired of waiting , that was happy with he end product...
But for some reason decided that bad rep is worth posting, but a good result is not so much.
Guess what next project from that client will have to go somewhere else .. as i as meany of us , do not need an extra aggravation in life.

If you try to do a good job and put an extra effort, and all you get is... oh it's taking you too long ... well no appreciation = no desire to do the job anymore.

And believe me the restoration business is not a money making machine , so as the 45 ACP project.

I do have all the tools i need and all the money i need to make one for myself , and may be that's what i will do... if i do not get the client base needed for small batch.

Like i sad before , constructive skeptical comments are welcome, judgmental calls i can do myself all day long.

Thanks.

Active post
 

Oh , and:
This post generated some interest, and it's been up for 2 days.
That tells me that a client base for 45ACp luger is not dried up ...
Just needs a little push getting there.

And by push I mean attractive pricing ...

Here's my idea for the measurements (specs): Borrow one of the others (from one of the owners - we already know who one is) and take the measurements as needed and put them down on paper. What's that worth?
I think I'll try to get in line for first one & then the other. I want both.
Best wishes.
Jack

Besides the difficulties that are inherant in frame production..another difficulty I see with this whole enterprise is the INVESTMENT aspect.

Once a potential buyer has invested his money..it will be spent in an effort to produce with absolutely NO guarentee of success. The only guarentee is that more & more money must be poured into production costs in the HOPE that a positive outcome will eventually emerge.

Sounds like a trip to Las Vegas. Or the stock market.

One other comment..Many of the collectors we associate with are getting somewhat long of tooth..A 2-4 year wait could be meaningful to many.

If any one can produce the blue print for a 45 ACP Luger or just frame and slide blue print or parts...
They can get first dips on production items at discounted rates.

Well , i am confident in my ability and ability of people that are working for me , that this can be accomplished.

In my eyes, what ever was possible 100 years ago is definitely possible today.

The idea of getting investors money step by step is more to make them comfortable with the idea.

W'd not you all agree, that the frame is the hardest part.
And after that's over , the rest is not so hard?

That is why , i can say , let's go with a 1000 down payment on the frames.

Let me produce them, present them to the world and go from there.

Actually after thinking about it... will it be better if i make one frame to prove it can be done, and after that skepticism will change to hope ?

Problem is, for that effort, i do need a set of blue prints for the frame.

"Well , i am confident in my ability and ability of people that are working for me , that this can be accomplished.

In my eyes, what ever was possible 100 years ago is definitely possible today."

If you look at what John Browning made in his small workshop in the late 1800's you could be right.

I wish you good luck in this...