1993 Mitchell Luger
 

I just purchased a NIB 1993 Mitchell Luger. Its working great but I'm having one small problem, sometimes the toggle fails to stay open after the last round is fired. Has anyone had this problem or now what the solution?
Best Regards,
Jim

Part of it is the weak mag springs in the magazines Mitchell provided with its Lugers. Have you tried a vintage Luger or Mec-Gar magazine in the gun?

Below is from an old post of mine but it seems that this gun is even more fussy about the magazine than a normal luger.
I also would like to fix this problem with not staying open on the last shot. One thing I have found it that it never happens when cycling DUMMY shells.
"I have the same SS Luger American Eagle made in 1993 I also had problems with feeding after the original Magazine had a broken plastic follower.
I tried several magazines and found that the magazine from my 1970,s Mauser Luger (Stiff Spring) jammed and my 2 cheep SS mag. single actioned The single action problem was fixed on the SS mags by changing the springs to a Wolf +10% SQR spring. At least in my case I think that the balance of the mag spring is important, too stiff and it jams too weak and it single actions. I still have a problem on the last shot, sometimes the action does not stay open"

Thanks for the information. I have purchased a second mag but I believe its a Mitchell and it seems to have the same problem but not as bad. I will look into changing mag springs and see how that goes. Thanks for the information

Contact GT, (Gerald Tomic) here on the Site to rework your magazines for optimal performance!!

One thing I should tell you is that Stainless against Stainless galls and you may see a lot of ware on the Toggle pin and where the parts rub against each other. I add a small amount of Lubraplate a "Molybdenum grease" to all of these arias after cleaning also on my Springfield SS 1911 even though the Springfield is made of a much berrer grade of SS.

Thanks a again, just looked up Lubraplate grease and there is a lot to choose from. Which specific do you use?

LUBRIPLATE 130-A
It is a Black and Silver can that i got at Ace Hardware

This is an american eagle ss i owned several years ago. it never functioned well and had the same problems yours did. I parted company with it , it just seemed too problamatic to hang on to. It was made in houston texas and looked pretty nice but i was not very happy with it. Not sure if this one was made by mitchell or not or american eagle was a different company.hope yours works out for you. Very nice looking pistol you have.Looking back now,perhpas i should have kept it and tried to work with it a bit more and made a good shooter out of it, oh well i could fill a very large room with the guns i might should have kept over the years.

Yea, there beautiful. I guess you never solved the toggle locking back problem. I'm determined to get it to work, mine shoots greats, very accurate just that minor problem..

J just received 2 new Magazines that are the original to my gun, I found them on Gunbroker for $25.00 ea. (Picture below with my SS Luger)
Next week I plan to take them to the range and see if they make a difference with the toggle lock back problem.
I will let you know what I find.

Historical note:

ALL of the stainless steel Lugers were made by the same company... some under contract to others, and some under the various names the manufacturer sold the pistols under.

The names include: SPM, Orimar, Mitchell, Stoeger, and AIMCO. All from Houston and all from the same manufacturer...

thanks john, looking at a close up of some of the pictures i took of it, it was marked spm, houston texas, another thing i remebered about it the upper right grip had been epoxied to the frame, another thing i thought wasn't just right, but i only paid 350.00 for it at the time and sold it for 450.00 to someone who only wanted it for the looks and not to shoot, so everyone was happy.

Well I tried out the new American eagle magazines; they worked great except for not staying open on the last shot.
Of the 5 magazines 3 American eagle and two cheap SS ones with wood bottoms that I bought from Sportsman’s Whse. for $14, 00 and changed out the springs to Wolf only one of the cheap SS ones kept the toggle opened on the last shot. ( That magazine had a loose follower button that I noticed when I began to fill it for the fourth time.
This gives me a clue. Maybe whatever the follower button hits on the last shot is out of whack.

Can some of the Experts tell me what the mechanism is to hold open and what part is out of whack?

Jim,
Presuming the he holdopen in the 08/90 (Sorry, I have yet to examine a Mitchell in person!) is the same as the original German, it is a little jigger that rests in a groove for it, inside the top right of the frame, parallel to the mag well's top opening.. Take off the top end of your Luger and observe from above what happens when an empty mag is inserted. Watch as the follower button contacts the bottom of the holdopen itself, and pivots it up. At the rear end of the holdopen part is a wedge shaped mass that is positioned by the offset in the holdopen piece to rise and fall in line with the path the breech block's bottom takes during cycling, as influenced by the follower button. Try moving the piece with your finger (no mag inserted) to see if it moves very freely, as it should. Make sure the holdopen's back end is able to rise to its fullest potential, presenting the most it can of its rising wedge to be exposed at the top of the frame, sticking up into the area where the breech block flies back and forward.
The pivot for the part may be sticky, one end or the other may be damaged or broken, or the thing may be bent. A weak mag spring may be only occasionally effective at its job in this system, as stated above; but you may have ruled out that aspect with your spring changes.
Google up Gerard Henrotin's "Luger Function", buy the e-book for the best $7.95 you may ever spend, when it comes to understanding how the "Luger System" works.

David Parker

David,
Thank You I purchased the E-Book it is great.
I did as you suggested as well as comparing the SS Luger to my 1936 P-08 and I found two things:
#1. The rear tip of the Hold Open Lever is warn and rounded over slightly where it contacts the indent on the underside of the Breechblock.
#2 The SS Luger Magazine does not push the Hold Open Lever as high as my 1936 model.
It looks like the Hold open lever is of the same design on both guns except one is Stainless Steel.
I have attached 3 pictures, #1 the SS Luger, #2 My 1936 P-08 and #3 the two guns side by side.

Hello
I found the same situation on my Mitchell SS (not very sharp edge) and made some adjustments with some improvements with one mag I had until the area became fouled during use. I'm going to try to work on it a bit more and experiment with some mags with a larger side button, these seem to push that lever a bit higher. The stronger springs seem so far to jam the action. I'm considering purchasing another mag catch lever and seeing if that makes a possible difference. I'll keep you all posted on my progress.

I did a little looking thinking I might consider changing the hold open latch and spring.
I found only one for sale.
It is on E-bay with 7 bids amd 3days left and already at $85.00.
I think I can live with keeping count to the last shot as everything else seems to work fine with the4 SS Luger.

I'm going to file mine sharp again and try some more mags and see how that goes. Mine works great minus that also but I'm just a bad count when shooting :)

Jim,
Is your lever as worn over as mine?
Let me know how your fix works?
I guess it would not hurt to file it sharp as it can't hurt the other parts of the gun.
Ed

I'm not sure the filing will help, as it would present even less material on the tip, vertically--If filed down, it won't stick up as far as it did to begin with. Rather than modifying a bunch of mags to work, I'd consider having your friendly neighborhood TIG welder to add a bead or two of new material to the tip of the holdopen, and then file to reshape back into a wedge. This will restore both the sharpness (which I'm not that sure is important) and the effective height to which it will rise.

I will wait and see if Jim's filing works, if it does not we can have some material welded to the Hold open lever it looks like my 1936 sticks up almost 2mm higher than the SS one.
David thanks for the advice on the Tig Welding, the Hold open lever on ebay is up to $95 now with 2 days left Welding should be much less.
Ed Reimbold

You don't really need to go through all that. With the top barrel/extention completely off the pistol, insert an empty magazine into the frame and see how far up the mag button pushes the hold-open. If it does not come up at all or only slightly, try another magazine and see what happens. If there is a marked difference in HO height with the second mag, then the first mag is either seating too low or the button has isssues.

Doug,
I sort of agree. (This is basically what I suggested back at the bottom of the first page in this thread!)

Initially, I was trying to see if the tip of the holdopen could be made to rise to effective height to catch the breech block securely each time, by whatever means--different mags, a finger from below, etc. However, the photos of the Mitchell next to the 1936 original Luger definitely show a difference between the tips of the two respective holdopens, with what does look like wear on the SS one. Add Jim's comment that the Mitchell's rides 2 mm lower compared to the '36... For this, there is one more thing to check, and that's how high the tip will ride in these mag comparisons. Multiple mags should give one set of measurements, and holding it up manually, pushed up to its limit in travel by a finger or tool would give a dimension for the max possible height. This may confirm whether or not it is even able to rise to a mechanically dependable height. If its height is marginal, when pressed manually to its limit, then one could add as much temporary meat to a follower button as possible--after which adding any more dimension would have the sole effect of not allowing the mag body to click into the mag catch/release button--and still have no effect because the holdopen, already at its limit of travel, cannot rise further. If this is the case, then it may be bent (SS alloy used not as hard as the original steel, therefore could bend), or simply require the extra material welded on to put the tip up where it should be.

The wear of the holdopen's tip indicates that the breech block has been scrubbing on it at the point of operation at which it encounters the breech block which is trying to return to battery. A sharp edge or point influences the binary(one or the other, period) situation necessary for the mechanical connection (holding the action open), or lack of mechanical connection (not holding the action open).

Just the same as the corner on the lug of the firing pin and the corner of the catch on the sear. The corners are stoned just enough to remove any burr or roughness in order that the release be smooth, but still should be quite sharp, so that there is no middle ground--the catches are either caught or not. Rounded corners will make engagement/release somewhat unpredictable because the slight radius will provide middle ground and allow less than positive (binary) behavior of the parts related. Perhaps the trigger pull experts will agree that the greater the radius on these former sharp corners, the wackier the pull and release will feel, up until the point, potentially, of full auto.

I'm curious as to whether this issue would become worse over time. I'm thinking it would.

Excellent points, David!

It all seems to go back to poor metallurgy and poor tolerances on the SS Lugers. Rounded edges where a nice, straight cut is expected, etc.
I bought a 1992 Mitchell, at the same time my son was born, in the hopes of giving it to him as an heirloom. Test firings led to a number of frustrations, (I am an invererate tinkerer as well and pride myself on getting almost anything to work). I eventually gave up on this Luger as not worth the trouble. I simply could not remake the entire gun!
My son will get something else as an heirloom.
Sad...the SS Lugers were a cool idea when they came out.

Totaly agree. The one i owned sure looked cool, but i to gave up on it.

Worked better last night with one mag especially, until the gun got fouled. I think I had to much oil on the pistol and everything became problematic after around 50 rounds, but it worked initially perfect. So I think its a combinations of several things. I still have some more mags I want to try, some with a larger side button to see if that helps....

Hello Gents
This discussion of hold-opens on the Mitchell SS Luger prompted me to go look at mine.:confused:
Here is a pic of my Mitchell hold-open with the magazine inserted. I notice mine sticks up alot more then the one previously posted.Mine never seems to have a hold-open problem after the last shot.Looking closely at my hold-open,it may even be a steel replacement?:eek:

Awhile back there was some discussion about the metallurgy of these guns. As you can see mine does have some deformation on the ears. I can't find any other areas of metal problems.
My deformation probably happened when I was taking the advice of so called experts"only shoot hot loads of 9mm,that is what gun was designed for!" :grr:
Bob

A bit off-topic, but on all my SS handguns, I use LSA as a lubricant. It's what the military uses on the M-16's (and others) where you have metals prone to galling. You can find it at any gunshow, in various containers. Green bottles, white bottles, it's a white-ish semi-solid/semi-grease and only a thin film is required.

...My $.02... :)

Could it because the magazine spring being too weak? German Luger magazine has very strong spring, which pushes ammo and the side thumb button up fast. If this spring is not strong enough, the gun may marginally work.

The hold open is the exact same thing as the German P-08. And get a MecGar magazine for this. Regrdless of them all made by the same company, as the name went from Aimco to SPM, production improved, they had to work the bugs out of them like anything else. I had a real firing pin in mine and a realhold open, basically all parts interchanged. I had no problems with mine except the hold open, I didn't care about it, it worked after I put a mecgar mag in it.

The surface of the frame ears of the original pistols was hardened (so were those of the post war Mauser Parabellums). Aimco/SPM/Orimar probably never bothered to copy that feature.

The holdopen has to 'catch' behind a shallow cutout in the bottom of the breech block. I would check that area for wear as well, I can image that, because of the relative softness of the stainless steel, the breech block cutout will also wear, allowing the breech block to 'hop over' the hold open. A weak hold open spring will also allow this.

We make stainless parts for some guns, the alloy is 416 half hard material, preheat treated. I believe 416 is the most common alloys used for guns, that and 17-4 PH. These are heat treatable alloys, and can be made reasonably hard. There are other special alloys used for casting, and I think of Ruger and what they have done with stainless castings, great stuff.

Consider the 1911. As originally designed some areas, and some entire parts, need to be pretty hard, and it's hard to get these alloys to the required hardnesses. We accept a little tradeoff for the joy of corrosion resistance, stainless steels are just not as good as alloy steels in severe stress areas, period.

But I get the idea that the Houston guns are not using the best stainless alloys, just from what I've read. Is that possible?

I had one that never did that and I put 1000+ through it. Some are fine, you won't see one marked SPM do this or Stoeger, even though it is the same company.