Real or Replica?
 

Hi,
I need some help, :(.
I just obtained a P38 ac 43 but I'm in doubt about it and I have 3 days for inspection.
I compared it with a video that's at this website called 'ReplicagunsDirect.com' And it matches the Real one except in one respect. My gun has right above the trigger stamped 'Carpentersville, IL'. Does anyone have any idea what this means? Also, it appears to have been dipped to cover rust or pitting?
Any thoughts on it would be appreciated :(
Manuel

Manuel,

The "Carpenterville, IL" is likely an importer's mark. You MUST supply us with extensive photographs if we are to help you!

Carpentersville, IL when Googled with the word guns brings up R Guns Inc.

I believe that batches of P-38 pistols are now in the process of being imported from Europe.

Others are showing up at dealers like "Aim Surplus"... They are running in the $550 range over there. R-Guns may be one of the companies doing the importing.

These will be import marked, and as such are less collectable than those that haven't been modified in this way. The dip re-finishing also makes them less collectable. These most likely were Russian Capture after WW-II or were used in another Eastern block country like Czechoslovakia.

Marc

http://www.gunauction.com/search/dis...emNum=10690706

Try this link, it's where I got it.
Oh, it does have R G above the Carpentersville (right side of gun). And is all matching #'s except mag, which I just got a mag made in the same time period. ---This is supposed to be a Russian Capture.
Manuel

Manuel, I'm not a P38 expert by no means but it sure is a real gun if that's what you mean by real or replica?
On a side note the R Guns website doesn't show any P38's in stock but they have Lugers:)

Dave

So Yes, Manuel,

The one pictured in the auction looks like a real recently imported Russian Capture P.38 Pistol to me. Made in the Walther plant in 1943...

I looked it up, and Aim Surplus is selling these for between $540 and $580.

Marc

All of the above advice is perfectly valid, and many of our members also belong to our "sister" website: P38forum.com Their focus is the P-38 and other walther pistols. I highly recommend you visit there...

Thanks guys for all your help and thx. John I did visit the P38 forum. :)

The reason I became doubtful was because of the Seller. I won the auction, sent the $ and FFL dealer license the next day, asking him to tell when he ships it with possible tracking link so that could anticipate to go pick it up.
Well I didn't hear from him for over a week, so I sent him an email 2 days later and no reply. Then a few more days I called him and he answered with really a bad demeanor and said he had just received my pay'mt, ya right, Priority letters don't take that long, so, I thought he lied.
So, I went and looked up his feed-back, and guess what, --2 negatives and 1 neutral out of about 25. One of the negatives the buyer was outraged he said he received a fake and the seller would not refund his money. So, thought that might have happened to me too.

Oh, btw, the gun arrived yesterday and it did look original, felt like steel, and functioned nice and solid with no slop, except for the 'Carpentersville, IL' and the darker coating (dipping), which made me wonder what was that doing on a gun from '43?'
The bore looks good except I think it needs cleaning. I have a cleaning solvent that will make it look like a mirror.
Manuel

The Results are in.
 

Hi guys,
The results are in. It shoots excellent!
10 yds. -- 1.5" pattern on bulls-eye.
25 yds. -- 2" pattern on bulls-eye.
100 yds -- 7 to 8" pattern on bulls-eye. For this dist. I hold-over.
I have a method for fixed sights that I use for longer distances and hit;
200 and 300 yd 18" targets, that I think is excellent. The only low point of the gun is that after cleaning the bore, it is quite worn but it is still doing its job, :)
Thx. again for your help, I really appreciated it, :)
Manuel

that's EXCELLENT accuracy for a P38....I have a BYF 44 with an mint bore that won't group nearly that well

Shooting 100 yards from a P38 is not easy. I guess the fix sight is zeroed at 30 meters from my Interarms P1 range experience.

I own a '43 P-38 with an excellent bore that won't shoot that good. A military issue that shoots a 2" group at 25 yards is awesome!! You did VERY good with your purchase.

Any P.38 that shoots that well is a real keeper.

There used to be a saying about wartime P.38's back in the 1970's--- P.38's are like LIGHTNING! They never strike twice in the same place! :D

"There used to be a saying about wartime P.38's back in the 1970's--- P.38's are like LIGHTNING! They never strike twice in the same place! "

---Lol.
All I can say the way I shoot is unorthodox.
Here for example the P38 has two recoil springs, one on each side to balance and control the recoil.
And my method is way different from the Isosceles stance i.e., weak and strong hand grip and held in the middle of the chest. My methods can be used for any handgun to get a controlled recoil to improve accuracy.

I worked in aerospace for 23 yrs. machining, research & development, production, and reworking most of the parts of turbine engines etc.

At any rate, I have shot w/ some friends that couldn't hold a 10' pattern at 10 yds, let alone the rest of the yardages. And at the end of the 2 days, 2" patterns@ 10 and 25 yds. And beyond that, they can kick my behind often. Darn-it I wish I hadn't showed them my methods, :)

Oh, btw, today a new friend from our forum (we coincidently met) used some of the methods and the first two shots were 1/2" apart, 2" from bulls-eye. And the third shot Bingo" --Bulls-eye.
M

Nukem, Alvin, rhuff,
You guys have excellent guns, and I think it's not the gun or you why you are not getting better results. I just think that you haven't been exposed to different technics that might work better. There is no doubt in my mind that you could do better by changing technics.

Here's just one of the methods I used for griping my gun but first some info as to why.
The Luger has a stock lug that was figured, and they were correct, to be the center point of recoil so that it could be transferred to the/a shoulder stock.
1. So, point your index finger and place it beside the upper part of the trigger guard.

2. With left hand place grip of gun right in the middle between your rt. index finger and thumb to where it feels comfortable. The whole weight of the gun should feel comfortable too. This will help support the center point of recoil and lessen the push of the big thumb muscle.

3. For practice, aim the gun somewhere and look at the front sight. Squeeze your grip to, not light or strong, but firm medium pressure while looking at the front sight. If it moves left or right or up/down, your grip is incorrect. --Practice squeezing and releasing until it does not move. ---Doing this will free the gun from undo vectorial pressures/tensions of your grip.
Happy practicing this part, :)
M

Oops,
Forgot to say what the left hand does, lol.
The pistol is mostly controlled by the right hand. The left hand is used as 'the cup and saucer.'
First, w/left hand you pull the hammer, not the rt. thumb, you don't want to loose the grip, then place the palm under the gun and under the rt. hand. Then the index finger point goes underneath the trigger guard. Here it is used as a fine tune on the elevation.
The left hand is only used to help with the weight of the pistol and to fine tune the elevation.
M

Manuel -

Please post some pics of your P-38. I also have a P-38 (as do most members here); it is a Russian capture/VoPo refurb. Mine was 'dipped' to refinish it. This is different from what your local re-bluer would do, as it was not buffed (no reason to). Mine was lightly 'dipped'; there have been reports/complaints here of a tar-like coating on some Lugers/P-38's refurbed by the Eastern Bloc rebuilding facilities, but mine is very nicely done. Some numbers have been XX'd out and new numbers stamped ("force matched" is the term used here).

As John mentioned above, the P-38 Forum [http://www.p38forum.com/] is a good source of information; Jan Still's site [http://luger.gunboards.com/index.php] is good as well. There is also the Walther Forum [http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/] which is another good site for enthusiasts.

Hi Postino,
Mine has an X and no forced matching. It appears lightly dipped. The barrel and the internals are darker than the frame. Also no polishing. Check it out on the link I posted on the 5th post at the start of the topic. It also has the description the seller used.
Manuel

Postino,
I just went and checked it, it is still there.
I did notice that the safety and the serrations are darker than the rest of the slide to the extend that it covered the 'S' and 'F' colors. It probably was lightly polished.
And.....
I noticed in the description that it mentioned the 'import marking' above the trigger, ....:o This was the very question I asked for advice....duhhh. :)
Manuel

My #1 problem with old gun shooting was on sights. Guns like Luger and C96 have tiny sights which are hard to see clearly under dim light condition, and in long distance, what filled my eyes are almost all vignetting scene. The #2 problem is trigger pull, the trigger pull on above mentioned two types of single action guns are not horrible, but not sweet either, it's hard to control hand shaking when pulling the trigger, with stock attached helps a lot on #2.

Hi Alvin,
Here's a suggestion you might try.

1. Clean the front and rear sights with polish remover, let dry, then get some white finger nail polish and with a tooth pick touch or mark a small dot/spot on the front sight (high point not top). And for the rear sight, mark a dot/spot on each side of the V or U groove near the top also. This will tell you when you have the top front sight even with the rear tops and it may be more visible in your aiming.

For #2,
That's the other main reason for using the left thumb to pull the hammer, as mentioned previously. This changes the action from 'double action to single action.'
:)

Nukem, Alvin, rhuff, and anyone,
I believe I have to clarify something regarding target patterns. This is how I view my shots. And of course I could be all wet. These are just examples to illustrate and communicate the idea(s).

If I hit all of my shots in the 2" circle I call it a 2" pattern. This is because all the shots are 2" or less to the bulls-eye (B-E). I understand many would call it a 4" pattern because they measure from one side to the other or farthest equaling 4", 2+2.

If I shot a 4" pattern (2+2) 10" from the B-E, I wouldn't call it a 4" pattern or a 10" pattern. One would have to describe it as a 4" (average) group 10" from the B-E. I would then use the 10" average for adjustment, because I would be shooting way, way off. lol. So, pattern by itself is not accurately describing the precision of it all, i.e., accuracy of the weapon and level of shooting ability.

So, as I said previously in the my 'results' I used the 'hit/impact' to the B-E. And I know it is not with the consensus of the majority. I just didn't think to describe it the other way, sorry.

M

mastermo

Just to say again. Your P.38 and it's accuracy are an anomaly in my shooting experience of almost 55 years.

My eyes aren't what they used to be, cause I am 64 years old now, but in the 1970's, I was an accomplished pistol competitor, amateur machinist and gunsmith...

Keeping the several p.38 pistols to which I had access at that time on a piece of standard typing paper at 50 yards was a real accomplishment.

With standard Army issue .45 1911 pistols, I could easily group 2 to 4 inches at the same distance... on a bad day. I was on a combat pistol team for almost 8 months... at 50 yards in competition, I could drop to the prone position, and push a .45 caliber hole into the center of a sillouette's Head... every time.

Man I wish I could still shoot like that! :(

I have always like the P.38 design, and the way it fits my hand. I carried one concealed for a long time... but only intended for a serious confrontation at typical gunfight distances of 10 yards or less. Any Luger I have ever used would shoot rings around a P.38... but I wouldn't carry a P.08 Luger for defense unless the only other thing I had to defend myself was a rock.

Since 1976, my "carry gun" has been a Colt steel-framed Combat Commander (similar to the one shown below), that was modified to true double action by L.W. Seecamp... It has never failed to hit what I aimed at... :cheers:

John,
WOW!, what a similarity of our past with the exception that I wasn't in the military. And I do believe in your shooting expertise, Great! There was nothing going on when I was 18 and was married and had a child, and not even the Draft asked me, :).

When I was a young boy around ten yrs. old, I used to shoot for hours on end with a BB rifle for a couple of years. I would shoot ants, flies, and any bug around our home. I used a cardboard box as a back-stop, when I could, to catch my BB's so that I could use them again and again, etc. And believe me, I used to love to see, the little critters vanish when I picked them off.

Then in my 20's and up I was using a German Mauser 7.65 sporterized. One time shooting at this common area in the mountains I was shooting around 150 yds. at little brown jugs (empty beer bottles), and this guy was there with his rifle scoped. And I hit 3 out of 5 bottles and he came over and asked me if I was in the military or something because he couldn't believe of how I was shooting w/ no scope and hitting the bottles. Heck, he said you shoot better than me and I have a scope.

That Mauser was one heck of rifle too bad I had to give it to a guy in lieu of a debt. But, a few months ago, I just bought another one, not sporterized. Had it drilled and tapped and mounted a scope. It shoots great but not the same as my original. I just started shooting again a couple of years ago, one to two times a week.

You say: "Man I wish I could still shoot like that! "

I certainly understand about the eyes, I'm 71. And this is what I use:
1. ---300 magnification for reading and doing close work;
2. ---250 mag. for using at the computer and shooting sometimes to 10 yds. I think maybe a 225 would work better but I figure my eyes will only get worse so I left it at 250 and I'll fit right into them, :);
3. ---1.75 mag. from 25 yds. to 300 yds. --This one works great for me!
When I was experimenting the magnification, I had up to six pairs of glasses (from Walmart:). I had several guys and rangers ask me 'if I had enough glasses, and I would answer 'not yet', lol. And finally I settled with the three I mentioned above. With the 1.75 the sights sometimes get real fuzzy, so, what I do is move off the target to some other background so that I have a better contrast then smoothly come back to the target.

Oh, try this. At the store pick something, an item that might be 10 yds. away and try glasses that you feel comfortable with to that distance. ---50yds to the same, then find a pair for across the store to something on wall or roof. Then take them to the range and see what happens, Good Luck.
Manuel
PS.--Great gun, nice choice!

John,

My experience with my P-38 seems to go hand and glove with yours. Like the "lightening thing!!".

Seeing your Commander rings a bell. I own (since 1973) a Colt Mark IV Government that Austin Behlert shortened the slide/barrel, shortened the grip, S&W rear sights, etc. He also converted it to a double action trigger pull that looks exactly like the one in the picture. What a masterpiece he built!! The USA lost a real pistolsmith when he passed.

Don't recall the quote exactly, but I seem to recall one individual's description of the most effective employment of the P.38 as being "seven warning shots followed by one well aimed throw".

Manuel,

Thanks for the suggestion. I think white finger nail polish on front sight will be helpful. The change is not permanent and that's good.

Some owners made permanent changes on sights, I have a few instances passed though my hands. The following one was done in an interesting way -- owner filed a small piece of blue off from the front sight, and drilled a small dot on white metal, then blued the dot. The job was well done, and it's not very annoying. The overall shape of the gun is too good for me to shoot it, so I cannot take advantage of this "improvement", but it's part of this gun's history.

---You're welcome, :)
Did you try the grip suggestion?

I ran out of .32ACP ammo. Will buy a few boxes over this weekend. I will give it a try soon!