Vihtavuori powder & 30 Luger
 

Hello everybody,
I am quite new on this forum. Used to reload for rifles and for FN-Browning High power 9mm and M1910 32ACP.
I just acquired a beautyful Model 06-29 Swiss Luger.
Does anyone know how to reload .30 Luger with Vihtavuori N 310 and/or N 320 powders?
I plan to use Hornady 86 RN (#3100) or 93 FMJ (#1419) grain .308 bullets or H&N 86 grain RN HS copperised lead .309 bullets.
Thank you.

I dont have any info on using Vithavouri in .30 Luger , but WHERE do you plan on finding the 93gr FMJ bullets? Me and a couple dozen more folks on here would love to know!

The Vihtavuori loading manuals show a little data for the 7.65 Par. But, they only show N340.

Perhaps an e-mail to Vihtavuori would produce results.

Answer to nukem556 : First you have to kow that I live in Belgium (the small european country that is without gouvernment from june 2010). I wrote I plan to reload with 93 gr bullets; I do't have them yet; my intention is to duplicate the factory load. I found mention of a Sako FMJ 93 gr on Vihtavuori Ladedata. Maybe is it imported in the US?

Answer to Freischütz : Thank you. Do tou know if this N 340 gives good results? I emailed Vihtavuori and wait for their answer; they are usually very helpful and I think they make a good reseach.

\
I researched the bullet that the OP mentioned, and can not find where that bullet is exported to the USA. I got all excited about finally having a good bullet for the 30 Luger, but I got shut down.:banghead:

Hello - I've never used N340 in the 7.65. I use it in the 7.63 Mauser and have good results. I use it to produce 1250 fps practice loads. I'm impressed by its clean burning. It also meters consistently.

Vihtavuori answered to my questions and were again very helpful. They suggest, with a Sierra RN 85 grains (.308) :
2,8 grains N-310, Vo +/- 1100 f/s = starting load
3,5 grains N-310, Vo +/- 1200 f/s) = maximum load
or
3,7 grains N-320, Vo +/- 1200 f/s = starting load
4,3 grains N-320, Vo +/- 1300 f/s = maximum load

Thanks for posting Vihtavuori's response. I'll put a copy of it in my reloading manual.

Yes, thank you for the information. I just copied it down to place it in one of my reloading books. I have never used that powder, but have loaded that bullet(#100). Any new information on loading the 30Luger is most appreciated by me.

I will post the results as soon as they exist. Il will only receive the brass in a couple of months. So it is not for tomorrow!

About Vihtavuori powders, I got an information from the german bullets manufacturer H&N who does not recommand N310 for the .30 Luger and prefers the N320.

I have made some experiences with my Swiss Lüger 06/29 chambered in .30 Luger
I tried Vectan BA-9 (french powder) and Vihtavuori N-320 pushing H&N RN HS .311 86 grains bullets; primer : Winchester Small Pistol Standard; case : Starline trimmed to 21,5 mm (if necessary); cartridge overall lenght : 29,6 mm.
1. For the BA-9 :
5 cartridges loaded with 4,9 grains of BA-9 gave as Vo : 327, 335, 341, 347 and 326 m/s (mean = 335,3 m/s)
5 cartridges loaded with 5,0 grains of BA-9 gave as Vo : 356, 350, 334, 358 and 354 m/s (mean = 350,4 m/s)
Incomplete ejection of empty case for 2 cartridges of the first batch and for one of the second (underligned).
No sign of overpressure visible on the primers.
The minimum Vo necessary for the operation of the pistol with this bullet seems to be 335 m/s.
To have a 100 % functionning of the pistol it is necessary to increase the powder load (5,1 maybe 5,2 grains).
Do anyone think that the pressures will remain acceptable? On the web, some reloaders consider 4,9 grains as the maximum, others are going till 5,4 grains.
2. For the N-320 :
I tried 3,7; 3,8; 3,9; 4,0; 4,1; 4,3 and 4,3 grains with no sign of overpressure on the primers.
I measured the Vo of only one cartridge loaded with 4,0 grains of N-320 and obtained 357 m/s.
The german magazine VIZIER SPECIAL N° 48 marz 2008 on "Pistole 08" explains (page N° 81) that for the same bullet (H&N 86 gr), same speed (363 and 365 m/s) and same precision, the N-320 (4,0 gr) gives a much higher pressure than the N-340 (4,6 gr) : 1691 versus 1311 bar.
I do not have Vihtavuori N-340 and this powder is rather difficult to find in my country.
Is it nevertheless recommended to use 4,0 gr N-320?

I sure do wish that I could help you out, but I have never used that bullet, or any of those powders. I have been using Alliant Red Dot, and Bullseye powders for my 30Luger reloads. I have to run them very near, or at the max loading to get 100% reliability of my 1920 DWM Luger.

I am trying a new bullet(to me). I got them from Western Bullet Company. They advertise it as a 30Luger bullet. It is out of Lyman mold #311227, and is sized to .309 in. It is a LRN, but does not have a cannalure/crimp groove for a roll crimp. I load it as long as I possibly can (1.150 +/- .005 in.). That is just barely above the last grease groove. Then by using a Lee FCD, which is a collet crimp die( bottle neck brass), it will produce a mild crimp into the superior part of the grease groove to help keep from getting bullet set-back when feeding up the feed ramp. I have only fired #25 of these, but the results were excellent in my gun. I ordered 1.5K more of them. I don't know if this info will help anyone, but there is so little info on reloading the 30Luger ammo, that I felt like it might help someone.

Hello Rhuff,

Thank you for your informations. It is allways interesting to exchange data when the available is few. The Haendler & Natermann (H&N) company makes lead and cupperised handgun and rifle bullets; their website is interesting. The 86 gr Round Nose High Speed .311 is especially made for .30 Luger in cupperised lead. They say that the lead is soft enough to adapt to all diameters and also soft enough to become "cannelured" when a taper crimp is made. With Starline or Winchester brass, I think it is not necessary to crimp; I left 2 dummy cartridges (1 SL and 1 Win) in the magazine and shot 30 rounds without any change in the cartridge overall length.

Giffroy,

Good to hear from you again. I believe that a large majority of the folks on this forum are collectors/buyers/sellers, and not shooters. Of the shooters, not too many of them are reloaders, so they purchase 9mm Lugers, and not 30Luger caliber. The factory ammo(Winchester and Fiocchi) is expensive here in the USA.

The original 30Luger ammo, and the current day 30Luger ammo, have a roll crimp into a cannalure to stop set back when the round feed into the chamber. The neck on the brass is so short, that it is difficult to get enough neck tension on the bullet to prevent set back.

Loading the .309 lead RN is easier to prevent setback, than when I load the Hornady or Sierra 86gr JSP with a .308 diameter. I plan to add a cannalure to these bullets(I own a cannalure tool) the next time that I load them to see if it will help with set back of the bullet. I have never tried to load .311 diameter bullets.

Reduce Set Back
 

The Lee Factory crimp die creates a canalure as it creates the crimp. It is very effective in preventing the set back problem.

Hello covert and rhuff,

Maybe I have not explained clearly enough : I have no problem with the setback of the bullets left in the magazine. Without crimp (or with a very light crimp) the lenght of 2 dummy cartridges remained unchanged during more than 20 shots.
I have just the problem to find a powder load giving a reasonable pressure AND strong enough to make the pistol operate. I will try 4,1 or 4,2 grains of N-320 ith my 86 grains bullets.
Anyway thank you very much for the help.

giffroy

Giffroy,

One would not expect to have set back in the magazine from firing the pistol. If anything, one would expect the bullet to be "pulled" (increase the OAL) from firing as is sometimes seen in high caliber centerfire revolvers, and the locking the cylinder. The main problem with set back in a semi-auto is when the bullet strikes the feed ramp. If it does set back the bullet, and you are near/at max powder charge, then the chamber pressures can go quite high, and cause a problem/kaboom!!

If you are near/at max powder load, and not getting reliable toggle function, perhaps you might consider installing a lighter weight recoil spring.....Just a thought.

I've never had a P.08 set bullets back into the case. I use cast bullets without crimp grooves and have sized as small as .309".

On the other hand, the C96 will set bullets back. When loading 10 rounds I make sure cases are on no more than their third or fourth reloading.

I got a good load with :
bullet : H&N (copperised lead) 86 grains HS RN .311
primer : Winchester Small Pistol Standard
case : Winchester trimmed to 21,5 mm
powder : (French) Vectan BA-9 : 5,1 grains
cartridge length : 29,6 mm
I measured the velocity of ten rounds and obtained the following results :
Mean : μ = 363,3 m/s
Maximum dispersion : dm = 18 m/s
Standard deviation σ = 5,1 m/s
No signs of overpressure and good functioning of the weapon.

If I had access to those components(bullets/powder), I would surely give them a try.....but I don't. Any reloader that can produce reloads that function 100% in HIS Luger, has accomplished something.

I worked for many months before I found a combination of powder, bullet, OAL, etc. that my DWM liked, and would function with. When I get, and fit my new BarSto barrels in 30Luger for my Colt Defender, and Browning Hi Power, I will most likely have to start all over again on a new recipe for them. I don't think that they will be as temperamental as is the Luger.

This is for a 1906 .30, Swiss, made by DWM in excellent condition:
Bullets: 93 gr Fiocchi
Cases: Fiocchi
Primers: CCI
Powder: V 340: started at 0.29g (4.47gr, call it 4.5gr) but that proved too low in my Luger and caused ejection problems, no locking upon an empty magazine. Went up to 0.31g (4.78gr, call it 4.8gr) and no more problems, good accuracy: most bullets stayed inside the 8 ring on a 25 m target. Very clean burning.
I am going to try lead bullets plated with 100 microns of copper, .309 that can be obtained in Italy at the very reasonable price of € 75 per 1000 ($80.80 at today's rate). I am going there for a competion next week and hopefully will pick them up and report after testing.
Around my club, Luger afficionados favour the V 340 over the 320 for the .30; these old ladies need to be treated gently and with respect if we want to hand them over to the next generation... V 320 would be good for a 9 mm, though.
Please, add the usual disclaimer: proceed with caution, works in my gun etc.

I was poking around last week and found this listing for VV N340 at Handloads.com for the 30 Luger. :)

Haven't tried it; have never seen the powder in my area. :rolleyes:

Yes, I also have the 5.4 gr listed, but as a maximum load. I have just started playing with the Luger so I am loath to submiy it to such pressure. I will chronograph so as to stay around 1180 ft/s max, which should be enough to punch holes in paper at 25 m. Speaking of which, I must aim well under the black with the 4.8 gr load to keep them Inside. I guess that with a hotter load I'll need to aim slightly higher, probably just at the 6 o'clock of the black. I remember reading somewhere that they were tuned to be point of aim at 50 m.

Giffroy I'm not using VIHTAVUORI as it's getting too expensive, anyway I'll give you some details:

round 60 gr 5.5 gr of VIHTAVUORI 340 oal 27.5
" " 3.5 VIHTAVUORI 310 " 27.5
" 73gr 4.9 VIHTAVUORI 340 29.0
" " 3.5 VIHTAVUORI 310 29.0
" 93 gr 4.9 VIHTAVUORI 340 29.7
110 gr 3.6 VIHTAVUORI 340 29.0

Please check and compare my data with other's

Safe shooting.

Sergio

Vihta is less expensive in France and more regular than other , perhaps french A1 is better
/
I use only N320 in 9para , 32acp and 30luger and now 2kg for 140€ :thumbup:
/
You use what in Italy ?

I may well have to give this VIHTA 340 powder a try in my 30 Luger brass IF we ever get any powder to purchase. This whole mess with no pistol powder is a pain in the butt!!:surr:

Patrice

If one doesn't shoot too much VIHTAVUORI is absolutely perfect, bu if you go to the range twice a week like me it's advisable to use a bit cheaper powder like "Granular S" made by Nobelsport of Pont de Bois. :-)

Sergio

Sergio,
What would you compare this powder to in the Vhitavuori range (or the French BA..)?

Using BA 9, what would you recommend for a copperised 93 gr, .309?
This for 1906 Swiss in excellent condition. Ideally, I 'd be looking for a velocity of 360 m/s (1180 ft/s)

Hello Octo,

Sorry for this very very late answer.

BA-9 powder seems to be a good choice.

My pet load for a Swiss 06/29 is :
bullet : H&N .311 RN HS 86 grain
primer : Winchester small pistol
powder : Vectan BA-9 : 5,2 grain
Vo (13 measures) = 174,7 m/s and a standerd deviation of 1,21%

Best wishes with this fabulous gun.

JMG / Belgium

I think a BIG problem with your Vo at 174 m/s

Sorry too for a late answer but I was away at a Bench Rest competition.
I use 93gr, either jacketed or "ramate" (copper coated), so my load is slightly lighter: I use N340, 4.78gr (0.31g). As you know, N340 is a good bit milder than BA9. No problem with ejection and very good accuracy.
I test fired a military 06/29 last Thursday with factory load and they grouped in the 9 and 10 rings. Amazing! The gun is in perfect condition.

Nice to know , I would use N340 for the 9 parabellum in IPSC for a tanfoglio , less pressure and more velocity , so if it work so nicely on 30 L ......

LU1900,
Very sorry, I made a mistake : the Vo is not 174,7 m/s but 374,7 m/s ...

Giffroy,
As I am using a copperised 93gr, I'll try a load of 5 gr of BA 9. Any comment?

You may even start at 4.7 gr BA9. Some guns already cycle with that load.

A word of caution: BA9 doesn't strike me as the most consistent powder from lot to lot. You may want to start low on the chart and work your way up.

Good point; all the more so as my lot is, lest's say, vintage...