silly question maybe
 

sorry if this is a stupid question and probably very elementary but my question is - How do you know what manufacturer made a Luger originally if the toggle has been replaced?

I've caught the luger bug and a local shop has a luger that seems to be two seperate guns, meaning all the numbers on the frame match each other but all the numbers on the toggle train (if thats the correct term) are different but match each other. The left side has the nitro stamp or the N under a crown which means its a commercial right? but the toggle has the 42 for mauser. The chamber area has 1920 stamped on it.

So how do I know what the original manufacturer logo on the toggle should be? thank you for any help clearing this up to my uneducated lugerness

most likely DWM if it has a Crown N on it

But to answer your question, you look at any proofs and acceptance markings, you look at how things are made, you look at the tell-tale things NOT there, date, markings, mauser hump, etc.

process of elimination

But when it is a parts gun, you can only judge by the two main pieces, frame and upper receiver to have even a wild guess :)


Ed

thanks Ed, I sure have alot to learn on these things. Its a good looking gun I just know enough to know its been mismatched

read, find a mentor who can show you 20 or thirty lugers

I was lucky, my mentor had over a 150 lugers and he taught me a lot.

got to gun shows and find a gun with 10 lugers and ask questions, but beaware a lot, alot alot of the guys believe totally bogus things, so take notes and come back here

buy books, not just cheap books either ;)


ed

Ed's advice is what I think of as "Luger University".

You will pay tuition to "Luger University" if you're interested in Lugers.

One way, you'll pay by buying reference materials and studying.... participating on sites like this.

The other way, you'll buy a Luger and pay tuition by possibly overpaying for one that has a "problem"... Faked. Mis-Matched. Re-Finished etc, but those conditions not disclosed (or even understood) by the seller.

Marc

You didn't mention how much the local shop is asking for the mixed upper+lower Luger...

If the price is right, it can still be a good deal...Even if mismatched...

How about the magazine??? Is it a repro??? Are the grips original??? Has it been reblued??? Have any numbers been X'd out??? Does it have a sear safety??? Is it 9mm or 7.65mm???

Marc, what did they tell us, I have never paid too much for a luger, just paid more than it was worth for a few years :D


Ed

Postino,
The tag on it says $1,295 and I said "no offense Sir but I dont believe its worth quite that much, so whats your no BS bottom dollar price for a repeat customer (I have been goin there a while and have a good repor with this shop) to which he says to me he'd take 1,000. I didnt do it but been thinking of stuff from my aresenal i'd be willing to trade possibly depending on you guys' advice.

the magazine isn't a repro, its got a wood bottom but one of the "lugs"(?) is broke off.

can you point me in the direction on how to identify a sear safety

the grips are wood but not like any (limited experience mind you) I've seen. they have a flat non checkered border around them like youd see on the plastic ones

I dont recall seeing any numbers X'd out and the tag at least says its a 9mm.

VJJ,
I would suggest you hold off buying it and learn more before you buy a parts gun(shooter).
Start out by buying a copy of Jan Still's Central powers and study it.
Bob

thanks for the advice spartacus, I know I should research more before a purchase as with anything, but are you also saying that price is off the wall?

VJJ,
I believe the price is too high (maybe pay $600).
Wait ,learn and save your money for a nice,matching Luger.
Bob

It's #29 in the FAQ...Description & pic...

Some early Lugers had grips like that...

The non-checkered border is found on Swiss Lugers when they began production around 1918 when guns were no longer available from Germany. These Swiss grips would be inletted for a grip safety. There are after-market grips of this pattern made for non-grip safety Lugers and this is what is on your gun. The nicest quality grips of this type (non-grip safety) that I have seen were made in Italy. The gun you are looking at is worth $600-700 tops as a shooter if in nice, functional condtion. For $1000 run away.

thanks for all the advice and info, i will keep looking for the starts to a collection

Good luck to you.
Bob

VJJ,

I know how it is to be infected with the Luger virus, but listen the guys and be patient.
Try learn as much as you can, read a lot, ask a lot. Books and fellow collectors willing to share their knowledge in forums like this one are a valuable asset at your hand. Stay calm and everything will work it out. In the end of the day you're gonna have a nice collection.

Good luck!

Douglas.

update fellas,
I was back in that shop picking up a transfer and the guy asks if Im still interested in the luger, well long story short he said he shouldve done more research first and that he's gonna lower the price quite a bit but wanted to offer it to me first. He said 700, I explained how ive been researching alot and asking alot of experts on "lugerforums" and they say not a penny over 550 for a mismatched commercial gun. I got it for 550 and am happy as a .........well something that is very happy.

So it has the Vertical N under a crown right next to the serial number, has same stamp and serial number under the barrel. has "1920" above the chamber

Back to my original question, since the toggle has been replaced and is a "42", who originally made it

"42" was a wartime code for Mauser. One of several. "S/42" "byf" etc.

thanks but I understand that part, the toggle assembly is not original to the rest of the gun, It is a Mauser assy but was wondering how would I know what manufacturer should be, or is a 42 marked mauser toggle possible ignoring the fact that the 2 digit numbers dont match

It is quite possible that the receiver and frame are also mismatched. I don't think we will be much help without good photos.

will get some up once I get home

since the toggle has been replaced and is a "42", who originally made it

If the chamber is marked 1920 then it had to have been made by DWM. At least that part of it and whatever else matches up to the upper receiver/barrel. You can look at the back of the frame and if it is perfectly flat it is DWM ...if it has a very slight bulge/hump it is Mauser.

...Mailman with an Uzi??? :D

$550 is a great price, but we need pics of the markings, toggle, serial #, magazine, full side views, 1100 x 1100 pixels is max for this forum, many here use electron microscopes to take their pics...or so it seems... :rolleyes:

Jerry, it is possible that this is a property stamp and not a date. We need photos.

Don, I am SURE it is probably a property mark. That's why it was made by DWM. Property mark or date..wouldn't make any difference. Made by DWM. I have never seen anything but a DWM with with a 1920 property mark.
By the time Mauser started making Lugers the 1920 property mark was long past.

Property markings were applied immediately after WW1 by the time the Weimar Govt. was established..there was no need for the 1920.

What else could it be?

Jerry, you are almost certainly correct that it is DWM but there are some issues. The vertical c/N suggests it was from an Alphabet DWM. If it is matched to the frame, the frame serial number suffix will tell us when it was manufactured.

A few police continued to use the 1920 property stamp into at least the mid-1920s.

Hopefully, photos will clear things up.

P.S. I have recorded quite a few police Erfurts with 1920 property stamps. Of course, these all also have a manufacture date.

Don, Yes..absolutely. Some things I forgot about! You are correct.

here it is, nothing fancy but its a start

forgot this one

It does appear that the frame, barrel and barrel extension are all from the same gun and that it was manufactured by DWM as a commercial pistol in 1923-24. I expect it is in .30 cal.

The 1920 is a property stamp and not a manufacture date. It's anyone's guess as to what it is doing there.

can you tell me anything about the grips, I havent seen any like that yet in my limited experience?

also, sorry for begginner questions, but what is a property stamp?

The grips are probably replacements. Others know more than I about these.

The short answer about the 1920 property stamp is that it was ordered to be applied to government-owned weapons in 1920 to distinguish them from privately owned weapons during the disarmament of the German people after WWI. For it to appear on a gun that was manufactured several years later is rare but not unkown.

thank you very much for the information

can you tell me anything about the grips,

These grips are Swiss.

so should I sell the swiss grips or just leave them be since it has a mismatched toggle anyhow?

The grips are of the Swiss style, but are not Swiss since they are not relieved for a grip safety. Most likely they are a very good quality Italian replacement/reproduction. There probably would not be much to gain by selling them seperately.

thanks Ron, yeah I was leaning that way anyway, they have character