East German Luger
 

Neat unit...
 

Cut for a sear safety... wonder why?? When it looks as if they skipped as many other steps as practical?? (lanyard loop, grip lines on the toggle, polish, etc..) Still, a real neat variation... best to all, til...lat'r...GT

It's a lot slicker than the Trabant Parabellum I've been led to expect. Any guesses as to how much it would fetch?

most of these have come on the market and very few know what they are here in the USA

There is a vopo on gunbroker right now with an east german made frame.

Ed

GT et al, The all new production DDR lugers (in the N prefix 1000 to 1150 range are quite scare and should fetch $1500+ even with importer markings. I have purchased several stashes of DDR PO8 parts and all of the trigger bars (sears) were drilled for the sear safety. I also have a good supply of NOS DDR rear toggle links. Your choice @$50 each + S&H or one of each @$90 postpaid. TH

Nice gun, but way too expensive. The 4000 Euro asking price is about 3000 too much.

A real part of the Luger history...and a way better made as the Mauser junk from the seventies and eighties.
A glossy finish is not all.

Mauser Junk.?
 

Hey ..watch it with the "mauser junk from the 70s and 80s".....I still love mine.!!.......sent it off to Luger Doc yesterday for his Magic Fingers to do a tune up.........and Im sure it will be fine.......as he "cured' my 1918 DWM that had a few problems.....We all have our own little niche that we like to collect............and some of us like me.....Retired Army Sgt. after 26 years.....just dont have the $4,000 bucks for the high end items... :)

Swissdagger. It's time to read our book :)

Gerben, does your book dispute common knowledge that Mauser Parabellums were built out of loosely fitted, porous castings and fed out of dysfunctional Dutch magazines? If not, I would have to agree with Stefan in valuing the build quality of Vopo guns much higher.

Mauser Parabellums & "Common Knowledge"
 

....I dont consider myself an "expert" on the Interarms Mauser since I have only purchased one to date.....however I seriously doubt that Sam Cummings of Interarms....with his vast experience and knowledge of firearms of all types.........would have invested untold millions in the Mauser Lugers.......if "common knowledge" had informed him they were made of loosely fitted-porous castings-dysfuntional dutch magazines........Since I started reading this Forum months ago....I have noted quite a number of Forum Members that have purchased the Interarms Mausers and have been totally satisfied with them..........I cant agree with "common knowledge"......by the way.....who originates this common knowledge anyway..?...thats right up there with getting a copy of the "Big picture" and meeting "They"

Michael, we indeed discuss the quality issues that the Dutch magazines had initially. We also discuss the use of castings for many of the small parts and the rear parts of the toggle assembly, as well as the use of sintering to produce the firing pin.

I don't know were you got the 'loosely fitting' and 'porous casting' ideas from. I expect it is lack of knowledge of the subject. Again, I recommend reading the book.

Personal experience with the product, witnessing no end of loose sideplates and casting voids poking through glossy polish.

I would love to see an example of such a 'casting void'.

The challenge was to create a version of the Parabellum pistol at an affordable price. This was only possible by changing a number of production steps, eliminating those that had no particular advantage and doing away with the hand fitting of parts before blueing.

By taking these steps Mauser was able to do in the 1970s whas neither Loewe, DWM nor Bern ever accomplished.

DWM's successor IWK made the toggle parts. The pistol utilized design changes from Bern. August Weiss provided his input, Ludwig Vorgrimler was responsible for the R&D work and the spring setup was designed by one of the best spring engineers in Germany.

Is your Sports version for sale yet, or are you going to hang on to that piece of worthless engineering? ;)

You can collect what ever you want but a cheap,mismatched VOPO Luger is always a better shooter and a more valuable collector piece as one of the new Mausers from the seventies and eighties or a Mitchell Arms Luger.
After 25 years in the gun business I know if I see junk, for that I have not to read any books.
In the last years I sold maybe 20 or 30 of such new made Mausers.
High glossy polished junk is still junk.
Sorry, my english is still not the best......

Ludwig Vorgrimler was the chief STG45 and Cetme guy wasn't he?

25 years in the gun business is a long time and certainly long enough to form an opinion on what constitutes junk and what does not. However, my Interarms .30 Luger, which I shoot on a regular basis, falls quite a distance above "junk" on my quality scale of production firearms even though the oversized and too sharply checkered grips had to be reworked to make the gun more comfortable to shoot. Got my first long gun in 1950 and my first handgun in 1962.

Regards,
Doug

Yes, he was. Interestingly enough, while he was working for Mauser in the 1970s, their neigbors Heckler & Koch were producing the G3 rifle, based on his design.

Price wise, the Mauser Parabellum is still a bit more expensive than a VoPo, although it is still possible to find very good deals on both of them. They both have their merits and from a collector stand point they are starting to get past a 'shooter' state. When going for a Mauser Parabellum, go for a boxed version with all the accessories and paper work.

I wonder if the Mitchel/Aimco/Orimar stainless steel versions will become popular collectables.

Gerben, my Mauser Parabellums have found more appreciative owners. I didn't win the Sports version on eGun, but other specimens pop up there from time to time.

I understand Sam Cummings' challenge to create a version of the Parabellum pistol at an affordable price. As far as I am concerned, this was a fool's errand. Cast and molded parts wreak havoc on precise actions, as witness the degradation of SIG P210 pistols after the expiration of Swiss military contracts. If anything, the Luger action requires much greater precision of manufacture. I know of no service grade Luger that has interchangeable parts. I heard the claim of doing away with the hand fitting of parts before blueing made on behalf of Krieghoff, but their interchangeability is not borne out by numerous original specimens in my collection. By contrast, Swiss P49 pistols suffer no degradation in accuracy or reliability in mixing and matching major subassemblies. Attempting to make a Luger to this standard is a recipe for disappointment. The Swiss seem to have gone as far as reasonably possible in their quest for "rationalizing" the Borchardt-Luger design, as witness the 1965 prototype pictured on pp. 276-277 of Horst Rutsch's book. Regrettably, Mauser engineers chose to do it their way. Predictably, mediocrity ensued.

Michael, it's not too bad. Mauser figured out that only 1 part needed hand fitting before blueing, and numbered these parts (rear toggle part only) in order to assemble them on the right pistols. The serial number is electropencilled on the bottom of the rear toggle as a result.

An exception are the pistols that were factory chromed (matte hardcrome plating). Because of different tolerances (adding a layer of chrome plating), these parts were numbered to the gun (only those essential to function properly).

So you can do one, and still have the other. The 1965 prototype (basically an 06/29 without grip safety) was sold to Mauser together with the plans and some sample guns. It ended up in Prof. Dr. Rolf Gminder's collection, and has moved on since. We used photos of the pistol that came from Gminder's archive for our book.

I think the Mauser engineers, and the companies involved, deserve a little more respect. The main reason that it wasn't popular in Switzerland was because of other, economical, issues. But that is another story :)

I propose an experiment. Randall Gibson's claim that Krieghoff Lugers had their parts fully finished before fitting is belied by SNs 3249 and 8551, where the sideplate of the former can be fitted on the latter, but not the other way around. With both pistols assembled, there is a nil clearance between the frame and the bottom edge of the sideplate. Neither sideplate manifests any discernible looseness when mounted on the pistol. For the sake of making a comparison, I suggest trying to swap sideplates between two Mauser Parabellums, and reporting their frame fit clearances.

Michael,

I like the approach. I have a few of them here and will make comparisons. I did at the time test the exchangeability of the P08, MP and 06/29 parts and that went quite well.

P06/29 71644 and P06/29 77493, both barely used: original sideplates mount easily and fit tight; interchange with difficulty in latching. The cannon of the former fits on the latter; the cannon of the latter is too tight on the former.

P06/29 National Match 59951 heavy 180mm barrel, very tight and presumably unfired, and P06/29 National Match 65721 pencil 200mm barrel, showing some target shooting use: original sideplates mount easily and fit tight; interchange easily with tight fit. The cannon of the former is too tight on the latter; the cannon of the latter fits on the former.

Getting back to the original post here, the pistol on eGun is interesting in that it is not one of the N-series pistols. It is quite a conundrum. The 1001 designation on the left frame and the two-digit serial number suggest that this was a production pistol after the N-series serial numbers; there are two or three other examples reported. It is noteworthy that there are no East German inspection stamps or proofs visible on the gun.

--Dwight

I would be careful to write this kind of opinion....you just have a 06/73 and a Vopo to sell....and the price of the first one is twice that of the second ........:D

Dwight, good observation. A little theory of mine is that new frames (and even new pistols) were used to replace existing pistols that were damaged beyond repair, copying the dead gun's serial number onto the new one to keep fuss and paperwork to a minimum.

You may say it is far fetched to think that something like that would take place (I did), but after noting several examples of guns that were replaced by Mauser in this way, I think it has some merit.

Speaking of serial no's, what do you guys think the deal is with the serial number on this Eastie produced slide?

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/P1080728.jpg

I've always assumed that the importer put it there; possibly because there were two pistols in the import shipment with the same serial number.

I agree that the -A looks a bit weird.

Does the frame serial number have a similar marking, or does it have the classic cursive a.?

Here is a similar one, on a first issue P08 that went 'VoPo'.

Actually, the frame looks like it might be a cursive "b". It's a little hard to read. Of course, it has the"x" stamp on the front of the frame as well.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/P1090901.jpg

Is the -A on the receiver in the white or did you fill it in / enhance it for the photo?

It's in the white. The others are enhanced for the photo.

Price drop:
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3393554

Price drop?

Wilhelm, since the -A is in the white, I expect that it was done in recent days. I think your assumption that it was done to make it a 'unique' number is the correct one. Nice crown/crown U markings.

From 4,000 to 2,800 Euros. If it's an arithmetical progression, I'll bid on the fourth go-around.

LOL, I missed the first one :)

Anyway, I know the sucker who bought the #72 DDR luger, so I'll report back when it gets here.

MZ,
Why such sour grapes on '70s Parabellums? I have two and other than crappy mags (toss 'em) and clunky grips they shoot as good as my other lugers. And yes, the blueing is glossy not matte but this isn't a military pistol.
They are what they are and most people who own them seem to be happy with their acquisition.
MR

Note to shooter: I currently have a couple of nice DDR reworked WW2 PO8 listed in the For Sale section. TH