1921 Weimar Army Luger
 

Can someone give me some information on this Luger? I am finding it hard to put all of the information together. I am looking for a unit history, how rare it is, and a price range for it. All matching except for the magazine, which is Nazi marked. It has 90-95% original bluing. Looks like it has some holster wear. Thank you for any help you can give on the history of this piece!

https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...lacewithpaddle
https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...lacewithpaddle
https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...lacewithpaddle
https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...lacewithpaddle
https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...lacewithpaddle
https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...lacewithpaddle
https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...lacewithpaddle
https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...lacewithpaddle

Hi Jordan,
Welcome to the forum. I beleive the 1921 stamp is a property mark, not a date. Most property marks were 1920. They were hand stamped. Dates were stamped using a roll die. The 5 digit S# is commercial. I beleive it was pulled from commercial production and diverted to the military. The Weimar acceptance, military style numbering, and the 1921 added at that time. Commercials have hidden #'s and a blank chamber, and of course no military proofs.
A very unusual Luger... Thanks for posting.

Welcome to the forum.

Mike, not to disagree, but the 1921 would be a date stamp, only the 1920 was a property stamp, and the acceptance and proofs on the right are consistent with a 1921. Like Mike said, it is a 5 digit commercial that was then placed into military service.

The unit marking is a Weimar one, as Mike said :) In addition the rear number is likely a unit rack number, that is the common belief and one I believe is true.

Value if all matching is about $800-$1000? Perhaps more if someone was looking for this marking, but its condition is not pristine (nice, but not pristine).

Ed

Thanks fellas for the information. I have some strange rub marks and what looks like some nicks that are on the middle of the barrel. You can see them in the first picture and they are on both sides of the barrel. Any idea what this may have been? Someone told me it was where someone tried attaching a silencer and I thought that that was pretty far-fetched.

Jordan, as has been stated above it started life as a commercial that was subsequently diverted to military use. You will quite possibly find that both the side plate and take-down lever are also numbered on their bottums in the commercial fashion.

The grip strap marking indicates that the pistol was the 23rd weapon of the First Battalion staff of the 18th Infantry Regiment of the Reichswehr. The additional marking on the back of the frame is also the weapon number. Numbering in such nonstandard locations is referred to as Weimar army Provisional marking and would have been placed there prior to the 1922 Reichswehr Directive on unit markings. The grip strap marking would have come later.

Thanks George, I was under the impression that this was a somewhat rare and sought after pistol relatively speaking since there were only 1,500 allowed by the Treaty of Versailles (or is that even correct?!). Is this the case? I'm hoping that I didn't make a stupid buy!

No, that is not correct about the numbers and/or the Versailles Treaty.

DWM was limited in what they could make, but you find many 1921 army and police lugers.

It depends on how much you paid on whether you over-paid. No offense meant, but sometimes its best to study up before purchasing.

I have made many too early buys (i.e. it will be worth what I paid in a few years, but right now its a bit high ;))

Ed

Ed,
Please disagree with me whenever needed. Any info that is wrong should be corrected.
I remember reading posts about arsenals mistakenly adding 1921, instead of 1920 as a property mark. I don't remember seeing another commercial that had a date added to the chamber, which is why I thought it was a property mark. I agree, it is a date. It's very straight and centered, unlike most property marks.

No offense taken, I've been known to "pull the trigger" on things a little prematurely. Luckily for us that buy Lugers (this isn't my first), the price will eventually come around. That's my selling point to my wife...that it's an "investment" :-P

Mike, I must disagee with most of the earlier posters, since I believe that this waa never commerical production. I note the the first digit (#9) has been added to the left receiver, which in fact was made as a standard 4 digit 1921 dated military, with the proper acceptance stamps on the right receiver. This is also verified by the Weimar military unit ID on the front grip strap and rack # on the rear of the frame. The only reason that I can think of why the serial number might have been changed, is that it was the same as another luger alreary in that unit's invertory, although probably and earlier date. It would appear that some unit armorers were no better than our current police forces, in not using the date & toggle code as part of a PO8's identification. TH

After a second look, the blue on the barrel doesn't match the blue on the receiver and the small flange looks a bit odd. This leads me to believe (without seeing any barrel marking) that the odd wear on the middle of the barrel could have come from a barrel change. TH

Is there a way to tell that the barrel was changed? The bottom of the barrel says 85516 which matches the numbers on the rest of the pistol. Under that is 88.

https://www.proxibid.com/AuctionImag...lacewithpaddle

Jordan, are the side plate and take-down lever numbered on the bottum?

Yes, they are both number 16, the same number that is on the side.

I just looked at the "88" on the barrel and it looks like there are actually three 8s, however they look more like 3 circles on top of each other, similar to a stoplight.

Jordan,
The "88" stamp is probably 8,83. It is the bore measured from land to land in millimeters. The die bounced and caused a double or ghost image.

That confirms that the pistol started out as a Luger that was intended for the commercial market. When pulled by the factory for military sales I believe the 7.65 mm barrel was changed out for a 9 mm. This would have also been the point at which military proof and acceptance stamps were executed, additional numbering added and PERHAPS the 1921 added. I am not as certain about the 1921 date stamp but it would make sense.

George, so would you say that this is 9MM or .30cal?

I'm still not convinced that it was ever a commerical 5 digit luger. The serial on the barrel and frame appear to be hand stamped as the digits are not properly alined. Also, where are the normal commerical proof marks on the barrel and receiver? These normally would not be removed when appropriated by the military. I've had several c/n proofed commerical lugers, later rebarrelled and numbered in the military fashion, that retained their C/N proofing on the receiver and commerical serialization on the TD lever and side plate. TH

I'm still not convinced that it was ever a commerical 5 digit luger. The serial on the barrel and frame appear to be hand stamped as the digits are not properly alined. Also, where are the normal commerical proof marks on the barrel and receiver? These normally would not be removed when appropriated by the military.

Tom, Is it possible the pistol was diverted to the military line after serial numbering but before Crown N proofing?
That might account for the 5 digit serial and no Crown N proofs. Also the hidden serial numbers almost make it a commercial without doubt?

Also.. even if a commercial pistol were taken by the military..isn't it unusual to see crown N proofs AND military proofs along the right side?

I just realized that its serial number range falls around the 5 digit that started as a 4 digit.

The '8' was possibly added later, most of these were marked by the police with O.P.M. and the 8 was added to the serial number, I used to own 83591 and a section of our book will have these in them.

But most were police, and have a sear safety... and mine and others were of the 'a' suffix.

I'm a little confused. So is there something out of the ordinary about this pistol since it doesn't have a sear safety?

Hi Jordan,

Your Luger is one of an approx. 10,000 Luger contract placed with DWM by the Army, Circa 1921. Some of these Lugers were taken from the run of Alphabet Commercial (aka 1920 Commercial) Lugers. All Army contract 1921 Lugers are in the No Suffix, A and B Suffix serial number ranges.

Dwm diverted and re-worked some of the Commercial Lugers in inventory. Re-barreled to 9MM, re-numbered in military style, and the date stamped on the chamber. The 8 was added to those already in inventory to avoid duplication of serial numbers as new pistols were produced.

Yours was most likely among the first completed commercials diverted to the contract. I have seen 3 or 4 other 1921 Army Lugers with the 8 added, I have owned 2 of them.

Sear Safeties are only found on Police Contract Lugers, not Army Lugers.

The 18th Infantry Regiment was part of the 6th Reichswehr Infantry Division. The Staff was billeted at Paderborn with the 13th Company. In 1941 the 18th Regiment was re-assigned as part of the 7th Driving Battalion, 1942-43 it was again re-asigned as 5th Company (EAST) 722nd Saftey Device Battalion, 1944 it was re-instated as the 18th Grenadier Regiment.

Ron

"Your Luger is one of an approx. 10,000 Luger contract placed with DWM by the Army, Circa 1921. Some of these Lugers were taken from the run of Alphabet Commercial (aka 1920 Commercial) Lugers. All Army contract 1921 Lugers are in the No Suffix, A and B Suffix serial number ranges. "

In the Weimar era, was not Simson the sole producer for the military ?
Alf.

"In the Weimar era, was not Simson the sole producer for the military ?"

No, DWM filled a contract of approx. 10,000 new production Lugers for the Army and an additional approx. 40,000 for Police issue. Most of the Police Lugers are 1920, most Army Lugers are 1921 production. All are found in NS,A and B suffix. A few have been reported with M suffix.

All can be identified by 'Dove' AyA4, ArA4 or WaA4 or a combination of these proofs. If a Luger chamber marked "1920" is found with these proofs, it is a 1920 production. If it has Imperial or other proofs the "1920" is a Gov't property mark, not a production date.

Lugers can occasionally be found with a "1921" Gov't property mark, usually on "Double Dates". Which is thought to have been applied in error due to a mis-interpretation of the Gov't Property Marking order. I have also seen a "Double Date" marked 1922, again presumed to have been marked in error.

Ron

Is there anyway to determine how early out of the 10,000 that this one specifically came? Being that you've only seen 3 or 4 of these, does that make this a somewhat rare or unique pistol?

It does make it somewhat rare, but adds little value. 1921 production Army Lugers are scarce, in that they only produced about 10,000 while other years were produced in the Tens of thousands. I would guess that yours was actually made in 1919 or possibly 1920, but wasn't re-worked or issued until early 1921 for the Army contract.

The problem is that they only appeal to a small segment of collectors. So, they have only the value put on them by those interested collectors. They don't carry the War history of WWI, or the Nazi mystique of WWII. Although they are rich in history, if and when time is taken to do the research.

If more people realized or studied what took place in Weimar Germany. They would be more interested.

Unit marks add some value in most cases. I've owned 12 unit marked 1921 Reichswehr Lugers.

The era they represent, 1921-1933 Weimar , is much more interesting to me now, than either WWI or WWII. And I have been a War nut since I was very young.

Ron

Well said!

What did they do with these pistols have the Weimar converted to the 3rd Reich in '33? Shelve them or continue their use without remarking them? I really hate to ask all these questions but I don't have anything to reference...yet!

Hi Don,

I think the Weimar era was one of the most interesting and exciting periods in German history. It kind of makes Capone, Dillinger , Bonnie and Clyde , and their ilk look like sissys.




Jordan,

No problem. They were used throughout WWII. In this case it very possibly remained in the 18th Infantry Regt. and progressed to the 18th Grenadier Regt. until captured or surrendered. As long as they functioned properly, they were used.

One fact is that Germany was still fighting with the Czechs, Polish and Russians after WWI had ended. They were fighting them in constant skirmishes along the Eastern Border of Germany. Your Luger , at some point could have seen action there also.

Ron

"" One fact is that Germany was still fighting with the Czechs, Polish and Russians after WWI had ended. They were fighting them in constant skirmishes along the Eastern Border of Germany. Your Luger , at some point could have seen action there also. ""

Hi Ron, any god reference, books to these events that I can get. Thanks.
Alf.

Alf,

Most are out of print, but do show up on ebay, Amazon, IDSA Books, etc.

"The Reichswehr and the German Republic 1919-1926" Harold Gordon

"The Evolution Of Blitzkrieg Tactics[Germany Defends Itself Against Poland 1918-1933] " Robert Cline

" Hitler's Heralds [The Story of the Freikorps 1918-1923"] Nigel Jones

"The Collapse Of the Weimar Republic" David Abraham

Ron

In ref to the Simson only comment, the contract was signed in 1924, first new made in 1925.

Prior to this DWM made lugers for the military and police, in the open until the IMKK (does that look right? this was the commission set up to oversee that the versailles treaty was being enforced. Keep in mind that in my opinion that the commission, especially the French made up the rules as they went along).

Around the early 20's (1922 / 1923) they raised hell with DWM and the German gov't and started to make only contract and commercial lugers (i.e. 7.65mm) although it is known that guns were siphoned off to the military and police.

This does bring up something I just read the other night; in Sturgess' book he states that there is a directive that 3,000 lugers were purchased new for the army in 1925 and another 3,000 in 1926. At first I thought this was a breakthrough comment of how many lugers Simson really made (it is assumed that less than a 1,000 were made by 1926; however, it is unlikely to me that you would have dated 1925 and 1926 lugers that didn't go into the 6,000 range (there are no documented Simson's after sn 700, as I own 701 and it is not dated, plus I have a large database of hundreds of guns after that with no date). So, obviously these lugers were procured from Simson AND DWM in my opinion.

Just some additional history that I wanted to throw out there and like Don and Ron, the Weimar period is a fascinating history lesson.

Ed

While I have not been able to lay my hands on definitive documentation, considerable circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that the termination of DWM's production of 9-mm P08s for the police and military was a result of the IMKK's interpretation that pistols and revolvers with calibers greater than 8mm or barrels longer than 98mm (3-7/8") constituted "war material," the manufacture of which was restricted (not totally prohibited) by the Treaty. Rather than try to monitor several manufacturers of such war material, Simson was designated as the only approved manufacturer. This is why DWM began manufacturing only "commercial" Lugers in 7.65mm with 3-7/8" barrels until after the IMKK was disbanded in 1927.

The police were allowed to have handguns that fit the "war material" designation. Rather than purchase them from Simson during the period 1922-27, they apparently opted to buy commmercial DWMs and rebarrel them. Rebarreling was probably done by Simson until the PTV started doing it in 1927.

Don, your theory I believe is based on undocumented but real facts, and I have read enough information skirting the issue that I am in complete agreement with your theory (not that that is uncommon :))

Not to detract from the OP's original questions, I find that every time I come to this forum (I'm a newbie.) it's like going back to school. I'm really enjoying this education. Great info.

James R.

Sold this Luger this weekend for $1,475. Looking for early war P.38 for a good price!

The serial number is in the proper range for a 1921-dated commercial P08. I'd really like to get my hands on this pistol to examine!

--Dwight

Well said Ron. We discussed recommended Weimar reading in a different thread recently:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25990

Balder