Yet another Newbie with...
 

...my apologies up front for having to ask a question.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a collector, per se, but I do enjoy having a few firearms in my possession. I'm an upland game bird hunter for the most part, so my 'collection' consists mainly of shotguns, and those are SXSs with the insertion of two O/Us as 'loaners' for those who prefer a single barrel.

I have only a few handguns, all have unimpeachable provenance owing to the fact that they have come down through family lines. One of those is a 1911 (1918 production) Colt .45 that has all the extras, i.e. magazines, holster, belt, magazine holder, and even a first-aid kit.

I've had a long-time admiration of the Luger and I have an opportunity to acquire one. The price would be in the $1K range. I say 'range' because this acquisition will be a trade that involves an item which I hold to be worth about that much.

I'll try to describe the Luger. I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but I don't have my camera handy at the moment, and I'll need to have an answer about the trade by tomorrow afternoon.

LUGER IDENTIFICATION

SIDE PLATE: -“80” stamped on bottom

FRAME: -“480” stamped above trigger guard
-“GESHIRT’ stamped beneath thumb safety
-(thumb safety has a grooved and raised knob)
-trigger has “80” stamped on left top
-“GERMANY” stamped at rear
-inside above trigger housing “N” inside a circle and a letter “J” at right angle to the “N”.

TOGGLE: -“80” stamped on rear
-“DMW” in stylized script on top
-“N” with crown above on left side of toggle arm

BARREL: -has a “witness” mark that appears to match that on the extension
-has “480” stamped with a cursive “k” beneath (i.e. between the “480” and the “witness” mark
-extension has “A” stamped on front right side next to lobe that slides into frame
-extension has “N” with crown above stamped on front left

SAFETY: -has “80” stamped on it

The gun has a holster (Ehrhardt 1937), no tool, but two extra magazines, none of which has a number matching those on the gun, and judging by some of the photos I've seen on this forum it would be considered in excellent condition. It has the wear you would expect, but no graffiti, tears, or other wounds.

The gun, itself, is in good shape. A little holster wear on the tip of the muzzle. The grips look original, i.e. not new, a bit worn and smoothed in places, and have no "million-dollar" chips that I read about.

I have spent several hours today searching for information on this forum and, quite honestly, am overwhelmed by depth and breadth of what's contained here.

My question is a general one. Am I making a mistake swapping an item that I "think" has a value of around (yet another variable) US$1,000.00 for this gun?

If you've taken the time to read this, many thanks. If you offer me your opinion and advice, thank you in advance.

Should I make this swap, I'll become an avid member of this forum and will endeavor to learn as much as I can about the Luger.

James

James, Welcome to the Forum. You are describing a commercial model Luger. It is likely .30 Luger. Or is it 9MM?
2 extra magazines plus the one with the pistol?

2 magazines..$200-250 if originals

Holster..$250+ or -

Pistol..$600 so you are well within market values.

Photo's would help.

A three digit commercial??? And a cursive 'k' under the 480 on barrel, but not on frame???

$1000 for a 30 cal??? I dunno...I don't ever figure on getting any money back for magazines, holsters, cleaning rods, magazine loaders, lanyards, oil bottles, swabs...etc...

Seems a bit high to me...but I'm not into "rigs"... :\

Rich..-“N” with crown above on left side of toggle arm I believe it's whats known as an Alphabet commercial. It has no date on the chamber and with the -“N” with crown above on left side of toggle arm...what could it be but a commercial?

Regardless of how you look at it the extras are worth considering in a deal. Lets say you buy the rig and sell off the extras..you end up with a $600 pistol.

I don't ever figure on getting any money back for magazines, holsters, cleaning rods, magazine loaders, lanyards, oil bottles, swabs...etc...WHY? You throw it all away? I always look for extras ..often they are what make a deal for me. Stuff I can seperate out and get some money back.

Thank you both for your responses.

I'm embarrassed to say, especially since I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable about firearms, I don't know the caliber. There's nothing in the way of stamping to give me a clue. I own a .30 cal and inserted a shell (empty, of course) into the chamber (Did I mention that I field-stripped the gun?) and while it fit I realized that I still didn't know anything.

The stamping on one magazine is "P08", but as I understand it this could be either caliber.

I don't know if the extra magazines are original or not. My wife collects bakelite. She tested two of them and determined that the thumbholds (correct nomenclature?) are bakelite. The third looks to be some type of aluminum or pot-metal. It's the one that's stamped with a four-digit number and also has a "2" above that number and some barely visible (I have a jeweler's loupe.) emblem that I can't associate with any of the emblems I find in the "Technical Information" part of this web site.

I don't know the meaning of Postino's word "rigs" but I can guess. What does the 'k' signify. I found it under one of the links on this site, but there was no indication to me what the suffices meant.

"Alphabet Commercial", now that's a new term for me to look up...but I will. After all, I used to tell my students that research is 90% (or was it 95%?) of the fun in any task.

Lugerholsterrepair mentioned that photos would help. True enough, but I'm reluctant to post photos of a gun I don't own yet. Posting the above symbols and numbers is bad enough, but I'm a little wary of inserting pix.

Be that as it may, should I make this trade, I'll certainly post photos with "enthusiasm and alacrity", as Howard Cosell used to say to Dandy Don.

Lugerholsterrepair, I'm judging from the number of your posts that I've read that you would consider this holster to be 'excellent' or better (if there is such a category). When I first looked at it I thought there was a repair to the top, but then I saw that it was the stitching for the tool pouch inside. The tool is not there, but the pouch is fine. There's absolutely no sign of wear and tear. There's just a bit of rub-off above and to the left of the anchor end of the closing strap. It looks like a scrape, or a rub.

Thank you again for your replies, both of you, because I also understand Postino's cautionary response.

I know from reading replies to other posters that, in the end, the decision to acquire lies with me. If I'm comfortable with the trade, then I'll live with it.

I'll let you know what happens.

Thanks again.

James

I've never been able to sell off any 'extras' and make money/break even...Except once: I sold the hardtop off my '58 Vette to a police officer for $100 and bought a ragtop assembly for $75...I had to rent a drill and buy a wood bit and some bolts to install the ragtop...so I came out even...

(This was in a supermarket parking lot in Oceanside CA back in 1970) :D

James -

A 'rig' is the pistol, holster, maybe a belt, cleaning rod, etc...

I'm basing my response on just the pistol, and it being 30 cal - I agree with Jerry: Crown over "N" is a commercial proof, used on 30 cal Lugers primarily...(or so I'm told)...

Stick a #2 pencil eraser first in the muzzle...if it goes in all the way and is a sloppy fit, it's 9mm; if it sticks at the metal band, it's 30 cal...

Hi James, I would figure your rig pretty much as Jerry does, but of course without photos we could both be wrong. You can tell if this gun is 9mm by inserting a common pencil in the barrel, if it goes in it's 9mm. Regards, Norm

James, My figures are predicated on a pistol with original blue..A reblue is a deal killer for me.
The stamping on one magazine is "P08", but as I understand it this could be either caliber. Yes..any magazine will accept either cartridge.

If both of your bakalite mags are black, have a close look at the sides. There should be an eagle 37 or P08 near the bottom.

Holster must be original to be worth any money...

A rig is a complete issue pistol, holster, mags..tool etc.

Make your trade contingent on a review here when you get the rig, post photo's and some kind soul will tell you all about it!

Thanks to all for the clarification of terms ('rig', etc.) and for the 'caliber test'. The pencil stuck at the metal ring. (Is this something like the old "rabbit died" test??)...so guess it's a 7.65.

I've spent that past two hours just reading the first 300+ posts on different threads using the search string "alphabet commercial". I learned a helluva lot. Even found a couple of guns that are pretty close to the one I'm considering.

Sorry to see that one of those threads attracted a troll who caused a bit of trouble. Hope this thread doesn't. I suspect that any thread with a 'newbie' in its title can do that.

In any case, one thing I've learned is that regardless of what decision I make about this gun, I'll return to this forum. That's partly owing to the caliber (no pun intended) of information and the decorum under which this information is imparted. Partly also owing to the fact that if I don't acquire this particular Luger, I will, indeed, acquire one. I read somewhere this afternoon a poster welcoming a newbie to the "addiction". I can see that.

I'll check with the current owner and obtain permission to post photos.

Thanks again,
James

Some of us prefer the 7.65mm Luger cartridge, which is what the pistol was originally designed around...but it seems to be generally accepted that the sales value is ~$150/$200 less than a comparable 9mm...

There seems to be more interest in the 9mm/military Lugers, too...

Several online merchants sell the 30 Luger ammunition...and even Wal-Mart sells the 9mm...

James
I agree with Jerry. Again there are many variables. If the finish is original, if the holster is an original.
, same with the mags. On the plus side even a mismatched reblued shooter class sells for $600 or so. At $1000 it seems ,with the extras to be a pretty good deal. Providing you want a 30.
I like Jerry's thought to buy it but final pending on opinions from the forum.With pictures of everything the forum members can tell you a good deal.
We were all in your situation with our first lugers, so know how you feel. Good luck and welcome to the forum.
Be aware it is impossible to only have one luger. So consider the first one as part of the learning process . Bill

I disagree with Jerry, Norme, and Wylon...They are basing their beliefs on Luger collectors, which is pretty much who they know on this (and other) Forums...and maybe a big show they frequent...And it is conditional on there being someone who wants that magazine/holster and is willing to pay your price *right now*...

Trying to sell magazines, holsters, accessories locally is a much more difficult task...Especially if you are trying to recoup money needed somewhere else...I know my local gunshops wouldn't want them, and CraigsList, Swap Sheet, etc isn't a reliable source for sales...eBay is always a good bet, but again, there has to be someone looking for that particular item...

IF you recoup your 'investment', you may have to wait some time for it...As everyone else may have all the magazines/holsters they presently need, and don't want to buy one for stock...

So I don't plan on selling any accouterments to try to justify my purchases...It is what it is, a $1000 handgun...If you can live with that, then you are good to go... :thumbup:

(That is my $.02 worth and worth every penny) :p

The black mag has an "eagle 37" with "fxo" above it. The "P 08" is stamped on the same side of the mag but across from the "eagle 37".

The black mag "tested" bakelite. The white one didn't, but she says it sure "looks and feels" like bakelite. (Yeah, don't ask. I'm not the one that collects that stuff.)

James

Rich
I will take all the extras I can get in any deal. I think selling luger accessories is probably somewhat based on geographical area. I am sure in Western New York the demand is not very high. Here in Montana if a good luger holster, mag etc is for sale you need to be quick or it's gone. Especially if selling at a reasonable price. I have sold many holsters and mags. Some on Ebay some at local gunshows and several on this Forum. It may not be immediate money but I have never had a problem selling it. We all have different collecting standards. Whatever works for you is ok. Bill

Bill, the demand is not very high for any accessories, no matter what the gun. *Every* gunshop (and my basement as well) here has boxes of magazines, holsters, grips, buttplates, reloading dies and odds & ends of parts...That sit for years, until someone paws through them looking for something...M16/AR-15 parts are the most common...

I have stuff in my boxes that I bought over the last 40 years just because I didn't want to leave a gun show without buying *something*...Even if it was only a $12 FN Type D BAR buttstock complete...

I should put some of it in the For Sale Forum...Maybe I'll get rich... :D

I thought you were "Rich". :) (Hey, I'm too new here to be trying the comedian role. :surr:)

On a more important note, this exchange about the value of accessories is interesting to me. I've attended a few gun shows (CA, AZ, ID, NV, and MT) over the years and it's been my observation that purveyors try to make the 'buyer' think these items are scarce as hens' teeth. Not being a collector of any note, I have to rely on sifting through the chaff to get to the grain.

I've contacted the owner of this Luger and we're meeting this afternoon to discuss 'details' of the potential exchange. Right now I'm thinking that making the deal contingent upon clarifying a few unknowns via this forum is what I'll do. One thing in my favor is that I have bulletproof (another non-pun) provenance on the item I'm trading, dating back to its origin, subsequent owners, and value, so I think I'm in a good position to ask for the contingency.

Thanks for the help on all this. I hope someday soon I'll be able to make a worthwhile contribution to forum discussions.

James

Okay, let's see if I can make this happen. I've received permission from the current owner to post these photos. I do lack talent when it comes to photography and equipment, so I hope these handheld, available-light shots are helpful.

James

There is a letter under the frame serial...I'm not that versed to tell what it is...

Pics aren't focused enough to be certain...but looks buffed & reblued...

After comparing other luger "rears" and toggles, maybe my eyes are playing tricks but it looks buffed and reblued.

I like the way you think, Duane... :D

It's a 'k'.

Hey, I said I lack photo talent...:)

Thanks all for the observations.

I, too, think it's been re-blued, but the wear on the tip of the barrel and on the sideplate puzzled me. That's why my original suspicions of mixed parts arose.

How much (% speaking) does it de-value a gun when this has happened?

James

I guess I will be more direct. The gun has been buffed, heavily, and reblued. It is no where near $1000. If you trade at that level you will come up short on the deal at least $400, probably closer to $500.

I agree, looks like a reblue. The parts that should be strawed look blued in your pictures? ( trigger,takedown lever, safety). Bill

Thanks all. Those comments are quite helpful.

James

but it looks buffed and reblued. Looking at the safety lever there is no doubt it has been buffed and reblued.

It is now a $400 pistol IMO. As I said before.. a reblued pistol would immediately..if not sooner kill the deal for me.

Keep a firm hold on your thousand dollar trade item.

Well, lugerholsterrepair, I don't know what comes before "immediately" in timing, but I think I get your drift.

The short story is I'm now the owner of this Luger. Yep, after reading all the comments and poring over myriad threads on this forum, I decided to take the plunge and at least acquire a "starter" gun.

Well-armed with the information I obtained from those of you on this forum I approached my friend this afternoon with a proposition. In the end, we reached an agreement that left both of us happy. My friend (and frequent business 'partner') has my trade item, and I have the gun with more 'booty' on the way. It's all good.

I believe that I can use this gun to springboard into the world of Lugers. So, yes, I know that this can become a habit. (Is there something akin to AA for Luger addicts?)

Now, with the accumulated wisdom on this forum, I can begin to chase down those other leads I have for LLH (Lugers Looking for Homes). It'll be fun.

Once more, thank you for your help.

Just in case there's a former colleague on board, I was "RA All the Way" USASA '59 - '62, ALS, then stationed at Herzo Base, FRG, '60 - '62. After active duty I served for another nine years as an "Independent Contractor" (translator/interpreter).

Have a safe and happy Memorial Weekend!

James

James, Congratulations. That is the key to a happy transaction. Both parties are happy. Lugers are fascinating on many levels. My first few aquisitions were not the kind or condition I came to be interested in but everyone has to start somewhere!

Show off your booty...I mean the other stuff you got with the pistol.

RA myself..Thought VN was going to be the last war on the Planet and I wanted to get in on it...Older.. thank God and wiser.



Look forward to your further participation.

Thanks, Jerry, for you comment.

I'll get a photo of the holster up soon. That's the only extra that relates to this gun. The other extras are cash (always good) and a couple of artifacts unrelated to weapons...unless one considers a pot (Native American) a weapon. :order:

James

Well, drat, I've already run into a problem...I think.

When I field-stripped this gun yesterday I didn't pay much attention to the fact that when I pulled the toggles to the rear in order to rotate the forward release lever down the toggles did not remain in a locked-to-the-rear position. My left forefinger easily reached and rotated the lever down. I then released the toggles forward and continued to remove the barrel from the frame. I thought that normal.

Then, this morning, I reviewed a couple of the videos about disassembly/assembly of the gun and noticed that in each case when the toggles were moved to the rear they locked into position.

Whoops! Does this mean that there's a part missing? Is there something my brain is missing? I've tried the same move with the safety on and off. The toggles still do not lock to the rear. I'm concerned now that this gun is malfunctioning.

Of course, there is the all likelihood that it is I who is malfunctioning.

Any assistance is appreciated.

James

James..When you buy a shooter there is a primary directive..it must shoot. Take off the barrel..upper reciever. To the right of the magazine well there should be a toggle holdopen. Look to see if it is there..if it is not there will be a well cut out where it once was. If it IS there slide a magazine into the pistol and you can see it raise. If it is there and raises it is functioning properly. REMEMBER..the toggles will not lock back without an empty magazine in the pistol.
The safety has nothing to do with this function.

If you are field stripping the gun, naturally you have removed the magazine. The device that holds the toggle in the rearward position is activated by the button on an empty magazine. Its purpose is to inform the shooter that the gun is empty. So, after the gun is assembled, insert an empty magazine and I'll bet the toggles will lock to the rear. If they don't, then you have a broken or missing holdopen.
Good luck!
Ron

Once again, Jerry and Ron, thanks.

That's the key, the one magazine that was in the pistol does not seem to function with the toggle. I tried the other two mags and they work fine. Toggle remains in the rear.

I'll compare that faulty mag with the others. It's different in that it had a number (2662) stamped across the bottom of the aluminum, a '2' above that and an emblem (worn and difficult to read even with a jeweler's loupe).

I should have tested with the other mags.

Thanks.

James

I have had original Luger mags that did not trip the holdopen. All my Mec-Gar mags do trip the holdopen.

Many old hands connected with this forum have encouraged new Luger purchasers with the admonition that they have begun a new addiction, and that their first Luger will lead to another, then another, etc., all adding up to a lifetime hobby of collecting. I, on the other hand, would caution first time buyers that acquiring an inferior first Luger can sour one on these weapons completely and for all time. I therefore would advise careful consideration before beginning with any old third rate Luger which will not enhance one's budding love affair. Get some help, get a knowledgable mentor, but be careful!

Thanks, Aaron. Is this meant to be generic good advice, which I believe it is, or is your comment meant to imply that I've purchaced an inferior Luger?

If I do have an inferior gun, that's okay. At my age I won't be collecting a lot of Lugers, so it seems to me that by trading for this one, even though it's not a collectible, would fall into the realm of learning. I will learn a lot from this one and from reading topics on this forum. Those two things, plus perhaps finding that 'mentor' you mention, should lead me in the right direction when I make that next acquisition. At least, that's what I hope will happen.

In any case, I am appreciative of any and all comments and advice.

James

I think most of us have had a less than stellar start in Luger collecting! Only the very lucky find that 99% rare Luger the first time out. I agree with James..nothing like owning something to let you learn first hand. Daggers..helmets..It's all the same.

I know several Members here who started late but built pretty fantastic collections in a short time.

Main thing is to START. Learn and find your interest..Then fine tune that interest. Some are collectors, some shooters some are purists. We can't all be the same.

James ..don't take ANY comments here as personal. We are not all authors who re read what we write to filter out nuances. Mostly it's just comments off the cuff. like pecans that fell off the tree..leave the bad ones..get the ones with meat in them.

Here's what I meant: Lugers are unbelievably finicky, even some of the better ones. First time buyers usually want to shoot their Lugers, and beginners can spend weeks and months getting one to work correctly, if at all. Variations in ammo, magazines, defective parts, springs, shooting stance, etc. can turn a beginner's new Luger into a nightmare. That's why I advise doing one's best to make sure he has a chance of success by trying to begin with a Luger that has no issues. Otherwise the experience can lead to total disappointment. And yes, to me a Luger with issues is an inferior Luger.

I understand and quite agree with you Aaron, and if nothing else, I'm patient and tenacious.

Jerry, I like you pecan analogy. I'll get "cracking", and after engaging in internet exchanges for a long time (before Al Gore) I don't take comments personally. Anyway, I've got a pretty thick skin, so even if they are directed to me or my intelligence level I tend to shrug them off.

Incidentally, I don't think any of the comments to me on this thread have been anything but constructive.

James

Bill, thanks for this comment. Just which parts should look strawed? BTW I understand the term.

James

James,
Bill indicated most of the parts that should be strawed (trigger, takedown lever, safety). In addition, the magazine release and ejector should be strawed, and the little "tab" that blocks the sear when the safety is engaged should be "in the white", i.e. no blue or straw just raw metal. Also the little pin, the tip of which shows on top of the left toggle knob, should be in the white (this is the most common evidence of re-blue as most refinishers do not bother to disassemble the toggle train to refinish).