Luger problem
 

Hi All,
Im brand-new here, and new to Lugers, first off, I've been shooting 1911's all my life and I know absolutely nothing about Lugers, I've never even held, or shot one until last week-end. A good friend of mine inherited a 1916 Erfurd Luger from his father, it's a real nice gun, it's a low serial#, there is no letter prefix before, or after the serial#, and all the numbers on the gun match. The only things that are not original is the magazine (it has a white plastic bottom, and no serial#) and the grips. The gun has been re-finished at some point, but it was a very good re-finishing job. I was told that Lugers need to be shot with "hot ammo" I dismissed that idea when I first heard it, I don't shoot hot loads out of any of my guns, I just don't see a need for it. We took the gun to the range last Friday, the ammo we had on hand was Winchester white-box, UMC, and my hand-loads which are 4grs of Bullseye behind a 115gr round nose bullet. The luger would'nt fire two rnds in a row, the gun would either stove-pipe, or fail to eject the empty case from the chamber!! Could I be wrong, do Lugers really need hot loads to function properly, or are we dealing with some other problem? Im trying to help my friend, but it's like the blind leading the blind, as I've said I know nothing about Lugers except that we were able to fire one shot at a time, and I was amazed at how acurate that little gun is, at 10 yrds, I could put everything in the bullseye. Any help on this will be greatly appriciated.
Paul :thumbup:

Hey Paul,
Try http://www.hlebooks.com/ebook/eluger1.htm
This e-book costs $7.95, which--per dollar--just may be the best Luger investment you could make at this point. Though barely more than a dozen pages, it will give you a basic understanding of the Luger System's mechanical function, including the issue of ammunition.
And if you have any further questions, the sages here at the forum will assist you, as you may see.
I am pretty new, and it helped me a lot to prepare for my first Luger.

I would try something simple first. Use a different magazine.

Lugers do not need, nor do they function well with hot ammo. In fact hot loads will beat a Luger, literally, to pieces.

The Winchester White Box is a good moderate choice. I have had good results with S&B also. Lugers function best with a firm stiff wristed grip.

As Duane states, try a different magazine. They can get finiky with a bad magazine.

Ron

Thanks much for the advice, can anyone recommend a good aftermarket mag, or should my friend try to get an original Luger mag?
Thanks,
Paul

The 'Mec-Gar' magazines are probably the best for the price. A good original magazine will run $100 to $150 or more, and even then may not function in that particular Luger.

Ron

Mec-Gar mag.
Winchester white box of Sellar and Beloit 115 gr. FMJ ammo.
Clean and well lube the gun.
Don't jam that last round into the magazine.
Grip it tightly when you fire it.
Be understanding. After all it was around before grandpa.
Have Fun.
dju

Check the ejector and the extractor for damage.

I am by no means an expert, but I've found that my gun will rarely eject cases from hot loads.

I believe I've found the sweetspot to be around 1020-1080fps with a cast 128gr lead bullet.

My new Mec-gar magazine needed a bit of lip adjustment to feed these, and I load them as long as will fit in the mags.

Paul,
I am glad that you found this forum. I saw your post over on another forum and tried to pursuade you NOT to use hot ammo. The folks here are extremely well versed in the Luger, and you can believe their recommendations, over the "experts" that are located elsewhere.

Take the gun apart, clean it well, as it might have some very old grease located within. Inspect the extractor and ejector....also the breachface. Lube it. A new mag and good ammo(try 2-3 different brands of 115gr-124gr FMJ), and give it a try. Good luck.

A couple of possibilities:

- Grip is often the problem. Good tight solid support is needed for a Luger to cycle properly

- Recoil spring. You might consider a new spring set. Wolfe has a set with three different recoil springs. The WW-I Lugers use a 18 turn spring (WW-II Mausers use one with more coils).

Marc

Not to steal this thread, but where did the idea that Lugers need "hot" loads come from? I've seen this comment on many other forums.

Did anyone here solve a functioning problem by using hot loads? I tried some in a 1937 and in a 1970s Mauser. Neither pistol cycled correctly. Both worked well with loads in the the 1050 to 1100 fps range.

During WW2 Mauser increased the strength of the PO8 recoil spring from 19 turns to 21, so that use of the hotter WW2 SMG ammo would not damage the pistol. This is probably the root of the "hot ammo" myth. The problem with rebuilt, reblued shooters, you don't know if a proper recoil (and other) spring has been installed, so even with a new MG mag, it's a matter of trial & error as to what ammo works best. TH

Tom -

(If my may be so bold as to call you "Tom") :D - Was that just Mauser or did all manufacturers increase the coils to 21???

P, The only other PO8 manufacturer during WW2 was Kreighoff and I don't know what they did. Perhaps one of our KH experts can answer your question. TH

My bad...I was thinking that all 5 mfg's were still making them...

hello again Ugluk;
Please elaborate on how you "adjusted" the lip of your mags.
When I bought my Luger it hat three mags (Sorry, no pics) one was Mauser original, works fine.
2 was unmarked but the bottom plug fingerhold had a bullseye pattern.
3 was marked "Made In Holland" and won't feed 3 in a row.
All three have black plastic fingergrips.

By the way, I'm working on a Lucite tool to open the action for jam cleaning. Pics when complete and working.

Hi Lliam
Please don't confuse me withsomeone experienced and skilled. There may be a lot better ways than what I did.

A little tool with a hacksaw slit makes it possible to adjust the lips without effort and damage.
I got my Luger with a well feeding mag and bought a Mec-Gar that didn't. I put two rounds in each and looked and measured how high and at what angle the top rounds sat.
Then I adjusted the mec-gar lips in until the mags were roughly equal.
The original one still is a hair better than the Mec-Gar so I'm not there yet, but it is a close thing now. A new main spring really improved things as well and I expect stronger magsprings would too.

There's real pros here that know how it's really done. Hopefully they'll call in and help out.

Cheers
Conny, Sweden

Very clever! What's the punch end for, the base retaining pins?

Actually, I made it for the extractor pin. But I discovered that in a pinch the striker will do just as well. Just a little field tool for what the loading tool won't do..

Hi all, I also am new here, and I have bought my first Luger P08 DWM. Shadow dog 500 on U Tube was best thing ever for me. I have now detailed striped my Luger and cleaned out gunk from years of neglect. Next project, when I get up nerve, is to remove and detail strip the recoil spring. I can't figure how to or why the twist on the spring as Shadow dog did.
I'm now trying to find a magazine release spring, mine is broken.
best to everyone..Rocky3

LugerDoc:

Yes, the recoil spring in my byf 41 does have 20.4 coils but it is drawn from obviously smaller diameter wire than my DWM 1916.

Harry E. Jones in his book "Luger Variations", Volume 1, page 30, has a thorough analysis of the recoil springs from all of the various Luger models. This analysis was done with the help of a Baldwin Tate Load Indicator and a Reicherter Elasticometer, so the results "should" be credible.

Here are some highlights:

Model Wire Dia. Turns Length Poundage

1906 Brazilian .060 15 2.625 65

1908 (P-08) .058 17 3.20 56-57

1923
7.65 & 9mm .060 17.25 3.15 60

1934 Mauser .058 20.4 3.50 58.2

As you can see, there was no "real" increase in spring poundage over the years, per Jones' analysis, anyway.

Also, WWII German machine gun ammo was uniformly made with lacquered steel cases. These would jam in the Luger. Special brass cased pistol ammo was made for P-08 usage, as I have seen many original boxes of WWII ammo so marked.

One thing that I'm sure we can all agree on is that when you open up a Luger, you really don't know just what type of spring you will find! Also, no doubt, the actual quality of the springs used must have gone down hill during war time production.

I might add, that the 9mm Interarms Parabellum spring you sold me several years ago works perfectly in my 1917 DWM (with either light target loads or my WWI German military clone handloads) and it is quite a bit "heavier" than my original byf 41 recoil spring!!!!! Go figure.


Sieger

Hi All:

Do you remember who said...."if you repeat the big lie long enough, everyone will soon believe it."

Well, perhaps this is a good example.

From Guns & Ammo, October 1968, page 57, "Ten Most Asked Questions About Lugers, written by "noted Luger expert" Michael Reese:

Question 10: Why does the Luger malfunction?

"American ammunition today is not quite hot enough for the Luger mechanism. By this, I mean 1,150 to 1,200 fps on 124 grain and 115 grain American ammunition is not so "hot" compared to the 1,400 fps 124 grain German manufacture. German contract ammunition during WWII was 1,400 fps on 115 grain."

Well, gentlemen, the Germans never even produced such a load!!!

Sieger

Some good advice in previous posts:

Clean all the old grease from the gun, look at the extractor and make sure there is not a build up of grease under it, this happens a lot and can cause much trouble. It might even be desirable to remove it and then clean to make sure all the hardened grease is gone.

A build up of grease can damage your breach block.

During your next shooting with normal ammunition place a small section of paper behind the rear toggle on the frame. The toggle should smash it on recoil but not bit though completely. If it does then your springs are weak and should be replaced.

Stove piping can be caused by the extractor holding onto the bullet too tightly and raising the tip of the bullet during recoil causing a jam. It can also be caused by a weak main spring, the toggle impacts the rear of the frame and slams forward at increased speed, this strips the bullet from the magazine faster than normal and the bullet impacts the top of the chamber.

Of course magazines can cause the same problem, the latching notch on the mag can cause a higher than normal angle causing much of the same problems,

Just some ideas-Good luck

Vern