Luger identication help
 

I would like some help to identify this Luger

The serial number is 1584 and aldo is writen GERMANY

On the side the number 20 is stamped

I will post some photos next

thanks
pepe

lugre identication er
 

Hello

I`m trying again to post some photos of this 1900 luguer

The gun is in excelent condition.As it is in Portugal i wonder if it could be a luger made for military test ?

Thank you for any advise
pepe

Hi Pepe,

I doubt a military test gun would be stamped "Germany", which is a stamp that was required by the US, (and perhaps other countreis) for import.
If that finish is truly original your gun is in outstanding shape, although absolutely NO wear on a front strap or backstrap is always a red flag for me.

Certainly looks like a re-finished 1900 commercial to me too. A nice gun. Is there bluing under the safety lever?
More photos please.
dju

I am sure it is refinshed, but it is a nice early commercial.


Ed

Thank you very much, I will post some more photos and more information later.
Can anyone explain me whats the meaning of the number 20 stamped on the left side over the trigger ?

Regards
Pepe

Hello Pepe,

If I had to make an opinion, the M1900 Commercial Luger that you show on this forum was probably a private purchase around 1904-06. When the pistol was registered in Portugal, it was stamped with a 'police department' number on the left side of the frame in front of the sideplate.

In my opinion, the pistol appears to be original and I doubt that such an outstanding restoration could be made in Portugal, unless the pistol was previously purchased and restored in another country. Sometimes you need to excuse the closed and ignorant opinions of some collectors on this forum who like to rush to conclusions about pistols appearing in near mint condition – they often say that "it can’t be true for a gun that old" without knowing much information as to what was found in other overseas countries. I personally know of about ten pre-1945 German pistols that I have been found in Portugal in similar condition including three mint M1934 Mauser Schnellfeuer pistols. Please e-mail me some close-up images of the front sight and the two sides of the pistol, preferably taken in the shade (natural light) on a colored background such as grey, yellow or light brown (such as a large piece of cardboard box). I shall send you my e-mail address separately.

For your information, I am aware of a few outstanding pistols that have come out of Portugal over the past many years. For example, in 2001, I acquired from the great grandson of Admiral Hypacio de Brion his near mint M1906 Portuguese Royal Navy Luger with all its accessories including the original manual from the Royal Navy Academy. Usually, these pistols are still 'hiding' in certain families.

It is a fact that Portuguese citizens did purchase Lugers before the Portuguese Navy received their various contract Lugers in 1908. Interestingly, I recently acquired from a Portuguese book dealer a first edition Albrecht Kind (AKAH) dealer catalog that was published in 1910 in the Spanish and English language. It lists the M1900 Luger as well as the M1902 Luger Carbine.

I am awaiting a reply from you.

Regards from Malta,
Albert Beliard

Well, if that isn't re-finished I will be eating crow, BUT given the blackness of the finish, no visible halos, minty grips and mag. bottom, and generally poor photos I stand by my "re-finished" verdict. Not to say that I could not be wrong.
Signed:
Closed and Ignorant in Omaha
dju

Albert, I could be wrong, and that is fine, but please have the pictures posted here and not to your email.

I would love to see how such a nice gun can exist after so many years.


I will refrain from taking offense to your baiting, since I know you have trouble with humor with the English language and can not always express yourself adequately.


Ed

The grips don't look orginal to my eye, slightly ill fitting, the color too light to have over 100 years wear on them and just too pristine with respect to the diamonds.

I am so closed and ignorant that I will refrain from making a comment. Sorry I am so stupid. Bill

the frame serial # as 1584, very early for a 1900....isn't the safety a 3rd type, later one? Wide grip safety? No expert here, was there another serial # range for Portugese guns?

Hello, Thank you very much for all of the information . First of all i would like to say that im not an expert in lugers but it's a gun i like very. i have a portuguese army in very good conditions too, that you can see photos on the post luger without marks pepe 2006.

Pepe:
Good luck and it is truely a beautiful gun.
dju

Pepe:

I am glad you have not yet purchased this Luger. As one of the “closed and ignorant” persons that Albert warned you about, I would like to make some comments about the gun.

It is a very early Model 1900 and should have a Type II thumb safety and a narrow grip safety (only slightly wider than ½ the width of the grip strap). The grips are reproduction. The checkering is not as fine as the original 1900 grips and you can clearly see at the top of the grip that it is not shaped correctly. It is difficult to tell from the photo but it appears that the front sight is blued and not a heat treated “fire blue” finish. Bluing is always difficult to evaluate from photo due to variances in type of lighting, background, etc., but the finish on this gun looks too dark and there are absolutely no flaws or wear anywhere on the gun. Although not impossible, while I have seen some really superior original Lugers as early as this one, I have never seen one this perfect.

There are Model 1900 Lugers that have been attributed to early Portuguese testing. There are no surviving archival records to verify this, but it is generally accepted. These guns bear a large two-digit number on the side of the receiver like the “20” on the example you are looking at, but they are of much later production in the 18XXX serial number range. This gun is much too early.

In my “ignorant” opinion, this is a refinished gun with replacement parts and an obvious forgery that is an attempt to replicate an early Portuguese test piece. I also find it amusing that an outstanding restoration could not be made in Portugal…there are “artisans” in every country!:)

Regards,
Ron

P.S. The "GERMANY" stamp is the final kiss of death!

Ron

Thanks for your opinion.I have some prety good photos that can help your analise but i`m being tryng to post them for 2 hours without sucess......

So, Ron is a "type 3" safety the long checkered one? thats the one I thought this gun should have, but I thought that it would be called a Type 1....but hey, but I knew the grip safety was wrong :-)

They just need to be made smaller, then they will post.

Crop, then make them smaller....


Ed

Pepe ; In this luger collecting world we have many differing opinions. In this case if Ron Wood says it's a fake then stay away from it. Certain experts should be listened to, Ron is one of them. What ever you decide to do is up to you and you alone but you have been warned. Good luck. "Ignorant Bill"

My apologies!!! I hit the "I" one too many times. A Type II is the short checkerd safety, the Type III is the short grooved safety. Thanks for pointing out my goof and you were right on with your original comments about the thumb and grip safetys.

"In my “ignorant” opinion, this is a refinished gun with replacement parts and an obvious forgery that is an attempt to replicate an early Portuguese test piece. I also find it amusing that an outstanding restoration could not be made in Portugal…there are “artisans” in every country!"

Pepe,

At the risk of being ignorant, jealous, ill informed, pregnant or brain damaged. I'm not an expert on the mechanical aspects of 1900 Lugers, but I'm with my friend Ron. Your Luger is a beautifully done, restored 1900. It is a nice Luger, but not original. The finish is too dark (black) and the straw on the trigger and safety is too bright, like brass.

Ron

luger help identification
 

new pictures

The new photos are better. They make the poor fitting grips that much more obvious. This is a restored gun with new, replacement grips.

Assuming it is a refinished gun does it have any value in the luger matket ?

Thanks for the better images. My comments will follow tomorrow after reviewing the images. Briefly, I do now observe some partial restoration, and I always try to avoid rushing to judgement unlike some other collectors on the forums.

Albert

I truely am ignorant and still a student..Why is the upper left corner of the sideplate rounded? Are 1900's this way? I don't own one so it looks odd to me...

I think I'll let that one slide.

In your deliberation before you render your opinion, I would appreciate your giving these images the benefit of your expert and careful analysis.

No.

Ron, Thanks!

I'm guessing Rons' point about the toggle knobs might involve those flats....looking at my 1900, there is only a bare hint of one on the lock side, on the other side, the scallop cuts all the way into touching the serrations.

Better late than never, eh, Albert? We breathlessly await your expert opinion. Please, educate us all!

After reviewing the better images, I suppose that I can now make the following comments without rushing like other people. Remember that "you are innocent until proven guilty":

1. The trigger, safety lever and takedown lever are restrawed; the ejector and toggle lock appear to be original straw;
2. The left grip is a replacement and the right grip appears to be fine;
3. The front sight appears to be fire-blued, but difficult to determine if it is original;
4. I suppose that the major parts of the pistol has been refinished, with the restorer paying attention to specific details.

Lastly, this pistol is not a total 'fake', instead it has been partially restored; it has not been altered to enhance its rarity. Considering that these pistols are forbidden in certain EU countries such as Portugal (and France), I sometimes wonder which expert does an excellent restoration without creating to much exposure in that country.

Albert

Albert, I'm sorry that my colleagues on the forum are giving you such a hard time, I don't think they appreciate the subtleties of Maltese humor. I do, however, and can't wait to get back to debating the great Russian/Bulgarian issue with you. Your friend, Norm

Albert ; I do not usually get involved in squabbles on the forums. However I for one am tired of your continual attitude problems.
I am sure you have a great deal of luger knowledge but this is generally negated by your attitude towards forum members.
We are all here to learn but you abuse the privilege.
I am convinced you can not help yourself but please try.
Norm above states it's Maltese humor. To me its plain old American Rude.
Have a great day
Bill

Urban Dictionary: troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

Most Forums ban trolls... :rolleyes:

Thank very much for all the opinians

But the discussion was to tecnical for me and poor english !

Can someone give me some kind of conclusion ?The gun is a is a Collectible or a Shooter?

This it worth 1000 dollars ?
regards
pepe

PS (sorry for my english )

Hi Albert, I know nothing about 1900 Lugers, so I'm not going to comment about this particular gun, I'll leave it to those who do. However, a type III safety on an early gun sounds like more than a "partial restoration". Also, to me, being partially restored is like being slightly pregnant, the end result is the same. Best regards, Norm

Pepe,

Si me puedo dirigir en Espanol, Tu pistola es un "Shooter' pero de la mejor calidad. Tiene ciertas deficiencias pero vale facilmente $1,000 US y quizas un poco mas.

Saludos,

Pepe,
Yes, it is worth $1000 or "un poco mas". The indiviual parts are probably worth that much. It is collectable at a basic level as an example of a Model 1900. It looks very nice and would be acceptable to hold a place in a beginning collection until a better example could be found. It is unfortunate that it has been improperly refinished, because an example that early is very difficult to find and would be worth much more if properly restored.

is albert the same jughead you guys recently threw off the board
 

operating under other names......same level of arrogance...tom