.30 Mauser
 

Ok guys,
I have always liked the 7.63 Mauser round but cannot find a decent pistol chambered for it. I know....C96, Astras, bergmann, etc....
I'm thinking of something more modern. Here is the question:

If you were going to convert any modern pistol to chamber the 7.63 Mauser, which would it be?

Duane
A late model Russian Tokarev is a nice pistol and very reliable. I like the ones with the reddish brown grips.
No rechambering needed,it just uses a hotter version of the .30 Mauser cartridge.:jumper:

The Bergmann and the Astra 400 pistols are chambered for the
9mm Largo cartridge not the .30 Mauser. I have never shot a Bergmann,I have shot a Astra 400. It has a good kick!:eek:

Bob

Thanks Bob.
Just to be clear. The 7.63X25 (.30 Mauser) can be fired through a 7.62 Tokarev chambered pistol?

I've read and heard for years that 7.63x25 Mauser can be fired in 7.62x25 Tokarev weapons, but haven't actually done this myself.

Here's a link for what it's worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.63x25_Mauser

I looked into this when the CZ 52 pistols arrived and the 7.62x25 Tok was hard to find in non-corrosive ammo. You might try the 7.63x25 Mauser ammo in a Tokarev or CZ 52 pistol. I don't know if the 7.63x25 Mauser ammo is hot enough to reliably cycle the CZ 52 action. Don't know about converting a more modern pistol to 7.63x25 Mauser.

Still have a CZ 52 pistol and 7.62x25 Tok and 7.63x25 Mauser ammo around here somewhere, but it's on zombie reserve status.:p

With regards to the CZ-52 I have also heard of the 7.63 may not work the action everytime. I have never tried the 7.63 in the CZ-52 and don't recommend it. The CZ-52 has a reputation for having a tight chamber wich I found out firsthand(individual guns will always very) and it can be finicky with ammo mostly with surplus. Some people use a spin test with the surplus ammo but new factory 7.62x25 is the way to go if you shoot the CZ-52. I wouldn't use the 7.63 Mauser in a 7.62x25 gun but that is me.

Herbert Werle did an LP08 in .30 Mauser. :)

During and after WWI, both the Russians and Soviets purchased 7.63 Mauser pistols. They began producing the cartridge in the late 1920s. Around 1929-1930, the USSR chose the Tokarev designed TT-30 pistol for service. At that time they renamed the 7.63 Mauser cartridge 7.62 Tokarev. That's it...they are dimensionally the same round. I won't get involved in the "which is hotter debate" as pressure varies greatly between different producers and countries. Some German and Czech 7.63 Mauser ammo was loaded quite hot for both pistol and SMG use, and some East Bloc 7.62 Tokarev ammo has tested rather light.
Personally, I would have no qualms about using Polish, Romanian, Chinese, or Yugoslav Tokarev ammo in a well-maintained and sprung C96 Mauser pistol.

A comparison on paper of the two.

FWIW, you could post the same measurements from 2 different Tokarevs, or 2 different Mausers, or 2 different 9mm Parabellums and get the same kinds of variation due to different manufacturing tolerances.
Dimensionally, the Tokarev and Mauser rounds are basically identical and inter-changeable.

+ 1

I might add, the 30 Borchardt is the same cartridge as well. :p

I oftern wonder when you see specifications on cartridges, especially older ones, do they measure examples of cartridges to come up with the data or take it from original blueprints of some sort?- Your spot on when you say about the variations of the same cartridge by different makers.

Postino, you are right. You can also add the 7.65 Mannlicher to that list, but I do believe that the Borchardt and Mannlicher rounds were loaded to lower pressures.

Jon & Patronen -

I get all my measurements from The Handloaders Manual Of Cartridge Conversions, by John Donnelly. Donnelly did not measure or inspect all the cartridges he lists (one per page, 1054 pages), he copied reports from various sources, the principle one being Cartridges Of The World, which is where data on all three 30 cal cartridges commented on here were taken. The data in this book concerns the shell, not the load or bullet.

Personally, I believe the cartridge manufacturers and reamer manufacturers/distributors have, over the years, combined differently named cartridges that have dimensions within manufacturing tolerances under one name. (Or, conversely, mark the same reamer/cartridge with different marks).

A good example is that 24 minute angle addition to the 16º neck angle shown on that diagram. I seriously doubt that any manufacturer is going to hold to that exact dimension...

jonnyc - I have had too many C96 & M30 Mausers with beaten locking block abutments to even think of firing anything but a target [read: light] load in them...and then only with a good abutment...Here's an example of a mildly beaten abutment...

Are you guys mixing dimensions and loadings? I believe I read where someone said the Borchardt cartridge was the same as the others? I think it would be best to say the cartridges are similar only dimensionally. I have c96 pistols ( duh) as well as a CZ52. I once had a Tokarev. Dimensionally they were similar and that's it. I would never fire ammo designed for the latter 2 in a C96. I've never been fortunate to own a Borchardt but 1) I'd never fire it 2) if I had to fire it for some reason I'd use a light c96 load.

When I first started loading 7,63 Mauser in the 1970s I first used the standard 85 grain jackets then permanently switched to a hard lead lubed bullet.

jerry

No. :)

I did. I also wrote in another post above - "The data in this book concerns the shell, not the load or bullet." I should have been more specific and said "cartridge case", not shell or cartridge. My bad. :p

jonnyc, my manual shows the Mannlicher cartridge case being straight, not bottlenecked...

Here's the other three; data taken from Frank Barnes' Cartridges Of The World 4th Ed [1980] for all three...

There are some differences; whether actual or typos, I don't know...Caveat emptor... ;)

Dave Borjes and I teamed up to determine a loading for a Borchardt as we planned to shoot it at a small private sub machine gun shoot in VA. The cartridge case we used was the .30 Mauser..We could find NO loading data for the Borchardt anywhere so we guessed. He loaded low and lower. The lower loading kicked the cartridges out just to the right of the shooter. The slightly higher..but still low loading.. kicked the cartridge case out 10 feet to the right and back of the shooter. Both of these loadings activated the Borchardt , extracting and loading a cartridge properly. The pistol was constantly checked by the owner thru all 80 rounds fired for abnormalities and none were noticed.
Probably 20 guys at the shoot were able to fire 3 rounds each from the Borchardt..only one Woman at the shoot was interested in shooting it..my Wife Ellie. She fired 5 rounds.

Mauser chambering
 

Interesting discussion. As I try to get my homebuilt 'Borchardt' ready to shoot, I used a Tokarev finish reamer to finish reaming for the 'Mauser'/Borchardt round. My intent is to wind up with a soft 30 Luger load. To check my work at this point, I've taken Starline Mauser shells and used primers only to test headspace/firing pin....fires fine! Chambers a standard 30 Mauser round nicely...but wouldn't think of firing it. Since I don't know how to duplicate the Borchardt mainspring, tension wise, I'll probably start with an absolute minimal loading to test cycling, and work my way up. I've debated enen using BP so as not to overstress the parts. I read where the original Borchardt had a terrible recoil......all the way to Ron Wood reporting, here, it was very smooth. Makes me wonder if some guy way back decided, since it fits, 'I'll just use Mauser rounds',..or worse, a Tokey round.

Bill, We used spent 30 Mauser cartridges..These seemed to be what it was made for. I would have to ask Dave for the exact loadings we ended up with. The pistol had very little percieved recoil..we fired it with the stock attached. It was very smooth. I regret not thinking to fire it without the stock..I would have liked to try that.

Here is a little line up I did a few years ago, listing the usual suspects :)

And a scan of a possible Borchardt round, next to a DWM 7.63 Mauser round.

I guess the other issue is/was the powder. I bought some.....I guess....original. old .30 Luger ammo right after I bought my 30 Luger. Old boxes (still have some, I think) and found it was some nasty stuff! Wow, next day the residue looked like it had been there a couple of years. So wondering with all the powders out there now, any recommendations on what to use for rolling your own? Bill

Bill, I know you will be flooded with up to date answers to this interesting question..most advocating the newest thing on the market. I have and always will use Red Dot Shotgun powder.
There are probably better propellants out there but I am not sophisticated enough to care. I use it in most all of my pistol loads. Buy it by the 5 LB. barrel. It burns clean, is cheap and works. What more can I ask?

+ 1 :thumbup:

"jonnyc, my manual shows the Mannlicher cartridge case being straight, not bottlenecked"

Postino, there is a 7.63 Mannlicher and a 7.65 Mannlicker, one having a straight case and the other having one identical to the Mauser/Tokarev case. It is DWM 497 I believe. I may have switched the nominal caliber number.

My apologies to those if my posts are confusing. I will clarify. First I have read in print that the factory loaded 7.63/30 mauser may not have the sufficiency in power level to work the roller locked action of the CZ-52. I have never tried this to confirm this so I can't say either way. From both reading other peoples experiences and my own the CZ-52 in unmodified condition for the most part has close tolerances in the chamber and for this reason I have given up all attempts at surplus ammo in the CZ-52 do to inconsistency of manufacture of the ammo. I posted the comparison on paper because it at least showed a difference in the dimensions of the 2. (weather those exact dimensions are always adheared to or not by ammo makers is another thing) and I have always been curious to how they obtain(research) their info. BTW Postino, Interesting about Edition 4 of Cartridges of the World and the explenation of making cartridge cases from .38 special and .223. I have made cases from .223 into 7.62x25 for the CZ-52 and it can be a chore. I gave up on that after a bit. I find it easier now just to go with factory ammo. I see that was the 1980 version and the availability of cases at the time may have suggested the .38 special turn down the rim etc. Also in Datigs book the developement of the Tokarev TT-33 it tells of the 7.62x25/7.63 mauser interchangeability and gives dimensions of the first 7.62x25(1930 ball) cartridge.

jonnyc - If you have the data sheet for that, please post it - I'd like to add it to my files. :thumbup:

My "Pistols Of The World" shows the Mannlicher model 1903 as using the 7.63 bottleneck cartridge; 1250 ft/sec velocity as opposed to the Mauser 1450 ft/sec. (Ugly looking pistol)... :p

It's actually The Handloaders Manual Of Cartridge Conversions by Donnelly that lists/suggests what to make the cartridge cases from; COTW is where Donnelly got the measurements/dimensions from.

I've formed 30 Mauser from 223 Remington for years; I still have a stripper clip full from the 70's in my display case...Slightly under diameter, but fireforms quite well. I did a couple/10 made from 38 Special just for S&G. I didn't see any appreciable benefit to using the 38 Spec, so I kept on with the 223 Remington. :rolleyes:

30 Mauser was impossible to find back then; Tokarev wasn't available yet.