"Mystery" commercial luger
 

Several of my collecting friends amd myself have been going over this recently acquired luger. It has several interesting features that generated some discussion. I have posted several photos of this piece for comments and discussion as we wouold like to hear more opinions. It is in 9mm. Check the magazine...Germany is marked near the top on the rear spine.

More views...

Ty, completely understood. I guess one of the problems is that the pseudo-experts think they can tell all from a photograph. Also, if they have never seen one, then it cannot exist and must be faked!

Ty.. I know a guy that is an expert in this and will forward it to him, LIKE all real Luger experts, WE stay FAR away from forums. I mean you never seen John Walter, or Fred Datiq on here have you, that goes with saying,

My Father always said an expert is a fellow from out of town with a briefcase...

Which are you? out of town or with a briefcase?

A 2nd post and you are disparaging the fine people who come here to learn and those who give opinions?

WE stay FAR away from forums. Why are you here?

Jerry, I think Ty is referring to the likes of other folks who slam things on the Forum before they accept that it just might be real. I'm sure he didn't include people of extreme integrity and knowledge like you cetainly are in his remarks above.

Herb, I don't know who or what he might be referring to as this is his second post..he is slamming this very Forum and it's members and secondly wanting to discuss it OFF the Forum!
I welcome every new member but he seems like a disagreeable sort. Declaring he is one of the select few experts who stay's FAR away from forums? It's no wonder with such an attitude.

I have said my piece about this fellow and we can get onto discussing your Luger.

Ok, that is a weird thing to say?

So, experts don't visit forums. Please name some experts that are up-to-date?

Forums are another way to keep in the loop and learn.

Yes forums can be like a clique but a good forum shares information.

I believe we have a good handful of experts here on the forum, several authors, and many people who are quoted and their guns, holsters etc used in many books.

Jan Still is a member of this forum and runs a forum on gunboards. Most folks would say that his books are some of the best on lugers? What do you think Ty?

My feeling on authors who don't post on forums are;

1. They are afraid folks will steal their information
2. They are afraid they will receive constant emails and PM's asking questions (sure, but then you refer them to the forum)
3. That they are 'older' and afraid of computers. I see this all the time....


Ed

Ed,

I would also include, "not generally up to date on the latest Luger findings" for people who don't visit forums and only rely on their books.

Appreciate all the opinions of reputation of Forum visitors, etc., and this is a discussion in itself. Would like more discussion on this luger.

Can someone explain to me why # font on the frame is different than font on the plate and barrel? Is such occurrence normal for matching Lugers of that particular vintage?

Joe, we apparently have an early 9mm commercial luger made in the first part of the 1930's, using a Mauser frame (Mauser fonts) matched with a left over DWM side plate and barrel. This is an unusual piece and was perhaps made earlier than one proofed with C/C/U. Also, this piece was most likely made in 9mm as a violation of the WW1 treaty. Note the DWM commercial C/N proofs, but a Mauser frame (see above) that may have been drawn from a G date frame.

Hi Joe, You shouldn't read to much into Mauser fonts. They were an enormous plant and must have had scores of die sets in use at any one time. Mixed fonts are common. Regards, Norm

The matching military inspected swe/63 would have to be post 1936. Due to the DWM toggle and lack of military acceptance, I suspect that this is a rework of some kind. TH

I have belatedly realized that I blundered in saying this pistol is 9mm, it is NOT! It is in 30 luger (7.65mm). Was wondering if any opinions or comments may change knowing this fact that I should have divulged originally.

Since they are both dead, it would personally surprise me very much to see them posting here on this forum.

Would be nice if they did, though :)

Anyway mr 'Borzellot' is yet another incarnation of a well known trouble maker. His account will not be active for long.

Vlim, where did you get your information about Fred Datig being dead? He lives in southern California and I'm certain I would have heard of his demise. I'm not certain about John Walter but pretty certain about Fred Datig. Anybody out there have more current information?

When Borzelot made his post I actually googled Fred Datig. There was no mention of his demise. He was born in 1925 and has a very interesting biography, well worth a few minutes research. I have no info on John Walter. Regards, Norm

Originally Posted by borzellot
"Well this is a superior example of one of the few 9mm's that were produced commercially. I know a guy that is an expert in this and will forward it to him, LIKE all real Luger experts, WE stay FAR away from forums. I mean you never seen John Walter, or Fred Datiq on here have you, that goes with saying, I will talk to you personally"

The above statement is an intentional insult to the all the well respected members of this Forum.

Does anyone know who or what borzellot is? Perhaps drbuster does?
Jan

Jan,

Borzellot has been banned. He is a troll that had made similar stupid and direspectful comments in the past under many different bogus registration identities. He just keeps coming back to be a nuisance...

Since your forum and ours share some moderators, we are well acquainted with him, and can generally nail him as soon as he posts. Thanks for your comments, and remain confident that the other moderators and I will remain vigilant both here, and on your Axis Pistols forum...

kind regards,

-John

It would be a happy surprise to learn that Fred Datig is still among us. Basically, his writing career seems to have stopped in the early 1990s. He had planned a 7-book series on the history of the Swiss Luger, of which only 2 were published. Add to that the fact that his earliest books were written in the 1950s and that he served during WW2, combined with a very low profile for many years, it is hard to reach another conclusion, really?

If I understand correctly, his son, who bears the same name, is in his seventies also.

John Walter had a good working relationship with a mutual friend, who confirmed this a couple of years ago.

In response to Jan Still's post above, I do NOT know who Borzellot (Ty) is and agree that his exclusive negative view is counterproductive to our Forum. I was just recalling Ralph Shattuck (may he rest in peace) telling me he excluded himself from the Forum because he didn't want to spend all his time justifying things he was giving to customers with his iron clad three day inspection. Why people such as John Walter, Charles Kenyon, etc. do not participate may mean nothing more than lack of time, other interests, or the like.

Drbuster:
"he excluded himself from the Forum because he didn't want to spend all his time justifying things he was giving to customers with his iron clad three day inspection"

I'm not sure I understand this statement. Can you clarify?
Thanks!
dju

Herb,

Folks who don't participate on forums always have their 'reasons'. But you seemed to agree with Ty, thus the comments getting off subject.
I agree with you that many folks assume too much from photographs, but I have to also say that if a questionable item, then yes, it will be discussed. But your point is well taken that we as forum members should be careful in assuming too much from photos. I have seen 'shadows' of another serial number in pictures, yet another angle none and in person, none. So, as a member, remember that pictures can be deceiving as well as revealing.

It is a fine line, folks who offer their items up for review are taking a chance, thus many, many members are too timid (maybe not the right word) to show their collection pieces. There are also members who will make plenty of comments and yet, I can only count on one hand the times they have shown something they actually own. Not that I keep track mind you, but it is an obvious and interesting observation.

in the same vein, it is interesting how the newer luger books have come out, and some of those same authors don't use what I consider the correct terminology, because the authors DON'T visit the forums and we do (i.e. Jan Still's 29 DWM etc)


it doesn't make them wrong, it just makes it harder to make collecting make sense...


Ed

The only purpose of trolls like 'borzellot' is to divide up forums, start fights, etc... They regrettably are a side product of the internet age and are difficult to combat because of lack of regulations on the internet. The last couple of months we have been plagued by someone who has registered himself under a large number of false identities and he shows his ugly face every once in a while. When we catch him, we ban his account. Unfortunately, any further measures would make it more difficult for regular, honest, forum members, so that is not really an option either.