new to lugers, with a 1920 I think
 

well I finally took the plunge, got my first luger and I'm thinking it might be a rather expensive mistake..I WANT MORE :jumper:
anyhow this one was listed as a 1920 DWM commercial, however, theres no "germany / made in germany" stamping
it does have a crown over N stamping on the underside of the barrel and another one above the takedown leaver..
the finish looks like the orgional rust blue ( looks much better in person than the pic's show)
But here it is, in it's glory
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010001b.jpg
and the links to more pics,
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010001b.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010002a.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010003b.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010004a.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010007b.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010010b.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010011b.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010012a.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010013a.jpg
Oh I forgot it's a .30 cal and any information anyone has would be helpfull..
also I realize it's just a shooter grade but still it's my first..and I have a feeling theres going to be more to follow..
thanks..

Yeah, they do add up. Nice purchase.

Very nice. Actually very splendid. It would be great if you would post all of your pics here on the forum. Best to you,
pitsword

Haaa, I am sharpshooting. Ed Tinker expalined it to me once and I still can't figure it out. However, someone of these fine gentlemen can/will help you do it. These folks are the very best!

Welcome to the Forum, and the ...err.. addiction. I can't make out the suffix on the front of the frame, under the number. That would tell us more about it.

Fn

I could do more pictures but.... what a bandwith killer that would be, so thats why I did the "clicky -links"

the suffix on the front of the frame, under the number.

thats the weird part the front of the frame is blank..... nothing nada.. only markings on it other than the serial # is the crown over N..

nice score

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I guess I did great I'm under the 700 mark by a hundred..

Oh ,and the extractor does say Geladen

but I'm still trying to find out more about it,, I was told it was a "parts" gun rebuilt by DWM sometime back in the 20's and that it was refinished by them back then, as a way to explain why nothings marked? (no matching numbers ,actually no numbers other than the two places where the photos show)
but don't understand the lack of import stamp.

as for the .30 cal.. whats not to love, shoots soft, seems accurate ( put 50 rounds through it as soon as I got it home and hit everything I aimed at ) just a little costly, but reloading will help with that..

I'd just like to nail down a time frame or a little more information.....

and sorry about the long-winded post's but as you can tell I'm excited about this one..

Hi Jeff,
The front of the frame was shaved back to remove the S# and possibly a 'Germany' stamp. You can still make out the remnants of the suffix on the curved surface. The last two digits of the S# are stamped on the bottom edge of the takedown lever (pictured) and should also be on the bottom edge of the sideplate (can't make it out in the pictures). If it is not numbered it is not original. The barrel is not original... no witness mark or S#. The S# added to the back of frame is most unusual. I could be wrong, but I don't think DWM made these changes to this Luger. It looks like a fine shooter in excellent condition.

The reason we ask you to post your photos here is that the external storage websites have a habit of either going out of business, or changing their file structure when the grow... that causes the links to go dead. Please post your photos here.

Nice Luger... Welcome to the Lugerforum.

the striker ( fireing pin?) has no grooves in it , and the mag's are "el cheepo" aftermarket.
and it does have a bolt hold open.

however, now that I've learned how to take this little guy apart,,( whew ) I did find more #'S there is a #93 on the back of the side plate a # 28 on the underside of the takedown leaver, and a # 55 stamped on the back of the bolt face.

"whoo-hoo" there is markings.. mismatched , but it did gobble up 50 rounds of Fiocchi ammo and it was sending them where I wanted them too..and with NO jam's or stovepipes...

All in all this is going to be a learning expearance for me, and after looking through the fourm and the wealth of infromation here. all I can say is thank-you to everyone .

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Hi Henry,
This is not what I have learned.
Many tens of thousands, Alphabet DWM's (formerly 1920 commercials) were exported to the US. Most all of these are serial numbered the same way on the external parts, with matching numbers on the same parts. The commercial series began in 1900 and continued until 1929 when Mauser took over production of Lugers. The serial numbers are continuos, even though the system was changed to the military style of numbering by adding an alphabet. Whether the parts were military surplus or new manufacture, they would have been finished and numbered to match. I don't beleive DWM would intentionally let one out of there door with mismatched and unnumbered parts. WWI military reworked Lugers sold to the commercial market are well documented. IMHO this is not one.

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The blueing on the side plate actually usually fades quicker than on the rest of the gun. So comparing the state of the blueing is not the best way to determine whether a part left the factory together with the gun, or not.

Basically, in some 90 years many things can happen to a gun and trust me that most of that has nothing to do with the original manufacturer. The 'Germany' or 'Made In German' marking was a requirement, dictated by US law, for import guns.

That said, there are many guns which were deliberately anonymized by removing serial numbers and property markings for many reasons. We see them pop up now and again in Belgium and France, where people from the resistance removed serial numbers (or even hacksawed 2 inches off of navy luger barrels for easier concealment).

On the other hand it may just be a gun smiths attempt to create a somewhat matching pistol from a bunch of parts. It's a nice looking gun that would make a pretty shooter.

I request that you explain this groundless remark. This is simply not true. There is no STATUS QUO here. We don't have wars on this forum, no matter what you have experienced on other forums.

Anyone who has been here any length of time will tell you that all opinions are welcome as long as they are contributed in a respectful manner in a spirit of sharing information and have a basis which can be substantiated, or when the basis cannot be substantiated, it must be stated that it is speculation or theory...

Theories are welcome too... but don't state theories as fact, if they can't be substantiated.

All Luger enthusiasts are welcome here, provided they can comply with a few simple rules.

There are rules to maintain the decorum on this website. It makes it a safe place to visit for all ages, and a place where the posted information can be trusted to be truthful or factual.

This is a privately owned website domain and the ability to visit and post here is a privilege, not a right. If you want to argue or attack other members, you may find yourself another forum to participate. That isn't allowed here.

Anyone can post their opinion, as long as it happens inside these rules. If you can't stay inside the lines, don't bother.

Posting must be done in a respectful manner...No flaming, no lies, no attacks, and it is not permitted to post "facts" unless they can be substantiated as facts with provenance.

Otherswise, opinion is just speculation and must be stated as such... Simple rules that boil down to gentemanly and lady like behavior, or you will find yourself not welcome here. Step over these lines and you can, and will be banned from participation.

This is an international organization of almost 9000 members that was founded to support Luger enthusiasts world-side and we thrive on the truth, respect, and consideration for others... not speculation or hearsay. If you have heard something from "inside sources" name them... more than likely it was from someone kicked out of here for not following the rules.

Any questions about posting here can be addressed in public, on the forum in the General Discussion forum.

I speak not only for the website owner and management, but also for the volunteer moderator staff, and the members.

-JS

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A couple of months ago I also bought a 1920 alpha commercial Luger. A beautiful little gun with a pristine bore after I gave everything a thourough cleaning. I completely disassembled the gun in the shop to check all the numbers which all matched excepet for one thing, the side plate had no number on it. Its a gun that has never been refinished that I can tell. It made me ponder the question, "Did this gun leave the factory this way?" I posted the question on a few different sites and, of course, received a few different answers.

I already thought I knew the answer I just wanted another opinion. To me it is a mismatched gun. Yet to other people on some of the other sites it was just a factory mistake. Either way I will enjoy this gun just as much and shoot it as it was intended for. However if a time comes to sell it I will sell it as a shooter Luger and not as a collectors Item, which to some people it still is, just not to me.

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heres the pic of the sideplate..
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P1010001c.jpg

And like it was stated, it's my first, and yes it's a miss-match of parts, but.. it's also a shooter.. which was what I was looking for.

However it's the misteek of the Luger that brough me here.. I feel bad that theres arguing over this.. this was not my intention.

I'm just here to learn... and eventually work my way towards a collector luger.. but in the mean time,I'm going to shoot this little one as much as I can, and try to get a few more "shooters" .. 9MM is next on the list..
and maybe an artillery in 9 or .30 and I'd love to find a carbine also in .30 ,

But...for me, it's just a way for me to go back in time to a time when people took pride in their work.

thank-you all once again...

VoPo's have nothing to do with the French. It is true, however, that Mauser built pistols under French control and we have very strong evidence that P08's were assembled in French arsenals, using Mauser parts. The VoPo pistols were put back into military and police service by the GDR / DDR in the 1950s and as such are now a recognized collector variation, as are those pistols assembled under French control.

You cannot compare them to an obviously mismatched and messed with commercial luger, how pretty it is otherwise.

Kritter,
If you are satisfied with your purchase nothing else matters, [B]NOT EVEN IF A SINGLE NUMBER ON THE GUN MATCHES[B]. You bought it as a shooter, not a collectors item. As long as the headspace is ok it doesn't matter if the numbers match or not.

If you decide to collect Lugers as a serious hobby, I would read all the material I could on them. The works of Jan C. Still are a must as are many other fine works. Try to fill your library and head before your safe. It can save you many costly mistakes in the end.

It seems that there is something new being discovered about these fine old relics of history every year. It's a hobby that can definately fuel a persons quest for knowledge

I usually don't weigh in on this type of exchange, but what was origianlly said was exactly this: (cut and pasted, not transcribed)

"20 years ago, VOPO"S were not considered real Lugers(Meaning original) for they were mismatched, now they are identified as real? Because the French assembled them and they were actually fitted. Is this true. Why can't we look at 20 commercials as such, being they were not original even as they left the factory."

As someone who majored in English in college, I read this exactly as Vlim has. The statement, as structured, implies that VoPo Lugers were assembled and fitted by the French, which is not the case. Vlim clarified that the French did assemble Lugers in conjunction with Mauser. They just had nothing to do with Vopo reworks.

And that's my opinion...

This is not about whether the French MADE Lugers or not. You are correct in that your statement makes clear that the French assembled and fitted Lugers, nowhere is it implied that they manufactured Lugers.

The confusion lies in that the way you structured your statement, it asserts that the French assembled and fitted, (not manufactured) Lugers for the VoPo, which is not the case.

I hope this makes everything clear.

FORMER member residentevil has been banned...

Thank you! (although I missed reading the text of his last reply, this was getting tedious...!)

Gees... I hope I didn't make him mad. I didn't get to see his response before it was deleted.

John
Thanks. A job well done. Bill

My biggest concern was developing a conditioned negative feeling for Veronica Lake!

I am always mystified by people who insist on putting so much energy into such unworthy endeavours...

Residentevil, Sabbathmusic, etc... is a person who chooses not to play by the forum rules. That is his choice and his alone. Behaviour like his will not be tolerated on this forum and we expect that he will be back in one form or another because he uses random ip-addresses.

If he shows up again, under another name and 'living' in another country, let us know and we will ban him again.

Call me old fashioned, stuck in the past, or whathave you. To me, the VoPo will never be anything more than a shooter. JMHO

When I come to a site such as lugerforum.com i do so for information. I always keep two things in my mind.

1. Do I know more about this subject than some of these members?
2. Do some of these members know more than me?

The answer to both questions is of course. I also value their opinions equally. When we disagree we must keep it civil when on a public forum. I know that this one didn't get out of hand, thanks to the moderators and the users themselves but, I have seen sites where it has.

In my opinion Residentevil tried to develop a hypothosis around his mismatched 1920 commercial Luger to justify it. He wants to make it something its not, a collectors gun, instead of the shooter it is In one of his posts he stated that no 1920 commercials existed with matching numbers, I have one and I bet a lot of you guys do to.

I also have no doubt that he will show up on another site and even try, to get back on here with a new IP address and avatar. I'm not a big Veronica Lake fan however, now Marylin Monroe...

Now I feel bad, all this discusion over my luger, and now someone's banned.. this Is not what I was looking for. and my apologies to the fourm and all members..

I've collected Smith & Wessons and Winchesters for years, Now lugers are something I'd like to start learning about. things like "commercials" and "VoPo" which I've never heard of before..

I guess what I'm trying to say is, this is all a learning expearnce for me, and this was my first luger. not matching, not orgional, But.. thats ok.. It's a start.

Something I can take out, shoot , play with, and just in general have fun with.. which is what I wanted..

Hopefully, with the more time I spend here, the more I will learn ( and there is a lot to learn ) and later move up to a matching, correct luger for collecting..

But once again, I do thank all of you for the information I've gained so far, and for the knowlage I'll gain in the future..

Don't conern yourself Kritter, you did nothing wrong... and your posting had nothing to do with the banning "residentevil" You were just the victim here.

... that individual surfaces every few weeks with a new registration and a false identity and gets banned for being a disruption and disperser of bad information. In other words, a Troll.

Enjoy your Luger... and may you have many many more...