Small piece of paper in grip/mag well
 

OK, I'm new to the forum. I inherited a '41 luger and stuck it in the safe some years ago. My dad had it for ... maybe 20 years prior and I'm sure he purchased as a collector's model. I've not shot it and over the years, haven't really acknowledged it's existence until this weekend's gun cleaning day. I looked it over and had accumulated quite a bit of dust. Has some bluing worn off the butt & barrel, but no rust & in pretty good shape. Numbers match except for mag. I pulled off the grips and found this (see attached pic). If my math is right, and this piece of paper was inserted upon manufacturing, it's roughly 70 years old, but doesn't look it. I've searched high & low but haven't seen any threads on similar. It appears to me to be an inspection stamp (again, piece of paper inserted under the grip). Has anyone seen this before?
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/217...ctionstamp.jpg

Hi Dan, Welcome to the forum. Does the gun's serial number end in 59? Regards, Norm

I have NEVER seen anything like this before inside a Luger... I would guess that the the #59 is the Inspector number... but that is just a guess...

The paper also seems to have holes in it that appear to resemble stitching in an accessory like a holster or magazine pouch... also just speculation...

Nice find. Congrats, and Welcome to the Lugerforum Joe.

The eagle looks like an NSDAP, Nazi Party eagle. kind of.
Very cool and unusual!

Yes, the serial does end in 59. It may have been attached to a holster.
Is there a tag on orig P.08 holsters?

Hi,

Judging from the edges it was at one time sewn into or onto something. Perhaps the remnants of some sort of packaging or sealing. My first impression was that of a clothing label of some sort, but the fact that the last 2 digits seem to match the gun serial is striking.

If it was intended for ID-ing the gun, I would expect a full serial number. With only 2 digits it points more towards a part#. I doubt that it was attached to a holster.

These may also be perforations designed to separate stamps something like postage stamps prior to utilizing them for whatever purpose they were intended.

It almost looks like the middle of the birds wings have [curved] text in them...two words on the left; one long word on the right...I can almost make them out...but I don't read German... :p

Joe: Very interesting and unique, might I ask if your '41 has wood or black plastic looking grips because I am curious as to the small cloth piece not coming out ( loose) or jamming the action of the luger (when mag was inserted). Was it perhaps pinched between the grip and frame(sandwiched in there on one side) down a ways from the top? ..Thank You, Dale

They're wood & yes, it was sandwiched between the grip & frame about 1/2 way down the handle. Does anyone know if a tag like this may have been attached to the holster?

More likely it belongs to the gun, since it has the last two digits of the serial number. It could not have become wedged as you found it accidentaly. It seems as if it was placed there.

Could this be some sort of one of a kind surviving factory final inspector's stamp?

I can't identify the words or letters. What's written there?
(Bad eyes...)

Welcome. Nice mystery. Would love to see photos of the gun.

Reich eagle stamp on the tag makes it extremely likely to be a period placement.

Last 2 serial digits strongly suggest the tag is associated directly with the gun, so the tag is likely not something random hidden under the grips by the guns owner. Would be too much of a coincidence.

Claim tag for checking weapon in for repair? No reason for it to end up under grip. It could some type of "keep this with the gun in case or to prove" tag that the soldier put under the grip to comply.

The fact that someone bothered to place it under the grip at all is key. Repair inspection tag is indeed the best guess, as others likely would rarely or if all be encountered because they were discarded during subsequent routine gun cleaning. Assumption would be that the signature under the "59" is the inspectors illegible best guess "J. N. Tal".

It surely was hand torn from a perforated sheet of same, as it has 3 torn perforated edges, and a forth perforated edge on the right side which is not torn and you can see that the flat non-perforated right edge was the right edge of the entire bordered sheet.

I can't tell from the photo, is it about the size of 3 regular US postage stamps? I'm sure you would have noted if there was anything on the obverse?

In other words, Colonel Mustard did it in the study with the lead pipe.

Thanks for sharing!!!

I think there are words there too, a few letters can be made out but not enough to tell what the word means.

Vern

in my opinion it makes no sense to use a piece of paper with an eagle as a receipt or service/repair tag. This looks way too "offical"... But most disturbing is the way how the number 59 was written. It is unlikely that somebody in the 1940's wrote especially the "9" that way. If you read old German letters or documents, I'm sure, you would never find a "9" like this. This "9" on this tag was written like an upside down "6". In Germany, they write the 9 in another way: First they make a small circle, counter-clockwise, then they write the "tail" downward. You can clearly see, that the ink pen was placed at about "3 o'clock" of the circle, then turned clockwise around and then downwards. (Ink spot) The "signature" looks like the initials NW.
I guess it's a fake.

Someone other than a German could have written it who was in the service of the Germans could it not? Did all Euros make the nines the same way? Can you be sure?

Yep, most likely somebody else than a German, and:
after 1945.
And hidden underneath the grips? Come on....
I guess a former owner put this tag underneath the grips to be found exactly there. Where else can you hide a piece of paper? And why hiding? Maybe a gag of the old owner. :roflmao:
And Joe states:
"If my math is right, and this piece of paper was inserted upon manufacturing, it's roughly 70 years old, but doesn't look it." He doubt it, too.
Just my 2 cents.

Who would bother to fake something so esoteric and hide it under the grips of only one gun that we know of?

If I were going to fake something like this it would read "inventory of the Berghof" or something similar.

Maybe a WW II evidence tag from some legal proceeding involving this Luger???

I've seen a lot of nines, handwritten ones from about 1850 - current times, and all shapes and sizes go. So I'm not supporting the '9 is not German' theory :)

I also write my nines as upside down sixes and I'm very European.

Guys: Just recently a unique piece of old crumbled paper was found in the mag pouch of a P.38 holster dated the day of the plot to assasinate Hitler. Most likely authentic because it was acquired and hidden without knowledge for many years in the mag pouch. It was interpreted and was found to be a Wehrmacht issued inventory type control slip for the gun. I think the speculation of a written number 9 being the validation of not being authentic of the stamp like fiber or paper found under the grip is at best speculation and taken at face value as nonsense a kin to fantasy CSI. I will always tend give the benefit of the doubt when things like this turn up until there is REAL PROOF to the contrary. I don't mean to be so hard on Andy and maybe don't understand his sense of humor if he's joking with his comments so sorry in advance if you weren't serious with your comments and maybe were just joking around..Thank You, Dale

If one looks at the stitching holes along the upper, lower and left edge of this tag it should be quite apparent that it was torn from a garment.

preserve and protect that item...then go to your local university
 

science department or sheriff/police office and make friends with the local forensics expert...they love a good mystery...date the ink and material...i hope it is 70+ years old...then the debate will really begin.....

Not that I know anything special about this at all but imho, it looks to like it was perforated by hand and torn from a larger sheet of paper.
Perhaps by a depot repair? technician.
Just my personal guess.

Obviously since none of the experts here have ever see one it couldn't have been a common practice.
Like so many fascinating aspects of this hobby we may never know unless or until another one is found, if ever.

It's ya'lls detective work that keeps me coming back here, there's some new mystery almost every day! :)

Sure, people are changing their handwriting "style" during their life. Everybody does. They changed in Germany several times the handwriting style in school. "Altdeutsch", "Kurrentschrift", "Suetterlin" and in 1941 they changed by law * to "Lateinische Schrift", latin letters. (Printed letters = Normalschrift).http://www.lgl-bw.de/lgl-internet/we...he_Schrift.pdf
So every style is possible. In the 19th century they wrote the 9 like shown on the tag, but later they changed it.
I guess if we could identify the letters underneath the wings, this would give us a much better clue.
Has nobody seen an eagle like this before?

*
http://home.arcor.de/lutz.schweizer/schrifterlass.html

The explanation for this issue could be very simple. Due to shrinking the grip panels of a Luger sometimes become loose. This is not a real pleasure for the hands. Very often a small sheet of paper or textile between the grip and the grip panel will fix the problem. Perhaps the former owner of this Luger solved this problem with any little textile fragment that was at hand. Perhaps the label of a jacket or a panty or .....
Regards , Armin.

I think Armin's speculation makes as much sense as any that has been offered...

The fact that the number on the fragment is the same a sthe last two digits of the gun's serial number simply may be a coincidence.

The mystery continues...

The item is in surprisingly good condition. I would expect more imprint, rust stains, or discoloration where it made contact with the grips and frame.

I did a little research on google images hoping to find the exact same eagle to give it some context but failed to find one. There are a ton of variations.

I'd like to see a photo of the back of the tag even if it is blank, maybe taken with a coin, or back on the gun in the position it was found to get an idea of its size. Might give a couple more clues, but I agree this one may not be solved for sure.

The wet ink stain on the signature shows it was hand signed. The eagle is not crisp and uniform, and is not centered on the tag and may be a hand stamp and not a print. A hand stamp would likely have circle around it though.

I'm leaning away from a garment tag though I'm not discounting it. I just can't believe the "59" is a coincidence.

Couple example SS garment / issue tags. Have to admit they look similar style.

Maybe this is just me, but if you were to pull the grips off of any of my handguns you would find oil there . I'd think that this would cause the ink to run and what ever the tag is made of to be stained. I have very corrosive finger prints and I live in Oregon where it rains 8 months out of the year so I'm always wiping my gun's down with an oily rag.
I do love trying to reverse engineer how things became as they are.
I love it.

Gary, It is believed that this gun sat on the grandfather's closet shelf for 60+ years without maintenance. That could explain the lack of lubrication.

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here, my job requires that I try to decipher handwritten prescriptions.....I see many different writing styles, and my guess would be that the # 59 was written by a lefthanded person more than a period specific style...just a guess.. Andy

Damn, no "59" tag found underneath those grips...:banghead:

Very nice rzm tags

Armin, what do you think about the handwiting of the number 9?

Andy,
my contribution to this issue is pure speculation. Besides fixing a grip panel I do not see any other reason to place cloth or paper between grip and panel.
The 9 on the label looks a bit strange to me. I still remember my mother who went to school during the 3rd Reich period. The 9 that she wrote looked different. It was more like a 'g' . And I am convinced that in this time scholar drill dit not tolerate different variations of letter writing.
But as said before, it is speculation.
Regards , Armin.

The age of the person who wrote the 9 would need to be known to help determine when he learned how to write numbers.

After reading all of this I think I will go with Armin's panty lable theory.

Staying on topic about the 9s, I will add a few pics of various personalized dress bayos that were owner-done. You'll see them often, but not really collected. They are difficult to prove as to authenticity. I find them interesting but about all you can do is study fonts and styles. When it comes to some of the wording, I lack knowledge of the German grammar styles.

Just thought I'd add that the 9s do look a bit similar. Hope you enjoy the pics. By no means does this validate or nullify the previous tag found -- and may I add that I love a good mystery, and that one is very interesting indeed.

Andy: I'll send you a link in a few days. I found a bayo like two of mine that'll match your collar tab. I'll get back with you later.

Steve

I'm new to the forum, just putting my two cents in...Could that piece of paper have been placed between the grip and frame to snug up a loose grip?