DWM 1920 "n" suffix research (Polizei)
 

Dear Forum members.

I want to research the DWM 1920 (Police) Lugers whit the serial suffix letter “n”
DWM did probably not manufacture Luger’s whit this “n” suffix in that year of 1920?
Presumably only serial numbers whit “no suffix” and “a” “b” suffix.
Where did this “n” range came from?
My own 1920 “n” has a strange extra mark beside the serial number under the barrel, and also in front of the frame. It also looks like that someone has grinding on the camber, where the dated is stamped, and afterwards give it a new dated stamp (1920) and also a property stamp (double date)
If you haves one of this “unsolved” Lugers, I will be very happy if you will rapport
following points to my little research:

1) Serial number
2) Property date (1920/1920) (yes/no)
3) Sear safety (yes/no) or if it has been removed
4) Mag, safety (yes/no) or if it has been removed
5) Right Receiver Marks
6) Police unit marks
7) Other unusual marks

Photos will be fantastic also!

Everyone; please feel free to recite your opinion in this case about the “n” suffix range!!

I hope on your kindly cooperation

Reg. Jes

Here a photo of the chamber of my DWM 1920 1699 n
Reg. Jes
7 jan. 2011. cleared up (below)

Hi Jes,

I am thrilled that someone is researching the 1920-dated DWMs with "n" suffixes. This series has puzzled me for a long time. I will add to your survey from my database as soon as I have a chance. In the interim, I will offer these observations:

* I believe the "n" series was produced by DWM in 1920 in addition to the "no suffix," "a" and "b" series. Although your Luger apparently has both "b" and "n" suffixes in odd locations, the others I have observed have only "n" in the proper locations and no evidence of alterations.

* I doubt that the chamber of your Luger has been ground. If your observation that it is "thinner" on top is based on the distance between the flange of the barrel and the edge of the chamber, it is normal for this distance to be less on top than toward the sides.

* Not all of this series is double-dated. Many have only the 1920 manufacture date and no 1920 property stamp.

* Because of my research interests, my data is limited to only those pistols with police propery markings; however, I have observed a number of pistols that apparently were not police owned. If I remember correctly, at least one had Reichswehr markings.

Don, we see forward to hear more about the ”n” suffix Lugers, that you have in your database!
It will be very interesting if we can clear up that this Lugere`s actually was manufacture in 1920.
About the camber grounding, looks likes this part has cleared up. Thanks!
And as you says; we have interesting in all DWM 1920Lugers whit “n” suffix, whit or whit out Police or Reichswehr unit markings.
Reg. Jes
:)

Data
 

Jes - Here are the data from my database. These all have DWM toggles and 1920 chamber dates. The information is listed in the order of your request. All of the mag safeties listed were removed or deactivated. In the cases of multiple police markings, I have listed only the ones I believe are the earliest.

167n; no 1920 ps (property stamp); ss (sear safety); ms (mag safety); E/ArA4 acceptances; S.D.I.82.R.
991n; no 1920 ps; ? ss & ms; ? acceptances; S.Br.I.1194.
1216n; no 1920 ps; ss; ? ms; ? acceptances; S.B.13x15.
1527n; no 1920 ps; no ss; no ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.D.VIII.3.117.
20xxn; no 1920 ps; ? ss; ? ms; ? acceptances; S.Kg.I.94.
3067n; 1920 ps; ss removed; ms removed; E/WaA4 acceptances; S.E.I.560.
3108n; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.Wpr.II.105.
3175n; 1920 ps; no ss; no ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.Op.I.432.
3176n; no 1920 ps; ? ss; ? ms; ? acceptances; S.Me.I ? 772.
32xxn; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; E/ArA4 acceptance; S.Mg.904.
4134n; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; ? acceptances; S.Sch I.953.
4137n; no 1920 ps; ? ss; ? ms; ? acceptances; S.Br.I.229
4197n; no 1920 ps; ss; no ms; ? acceptances; S.Br.I.159.
4208n; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.D.I.282.R.
4388n; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; ? acceptances; S.Mg.934.
4605n; 1920 ps; no ss; no ms; ? acceptances; S.S.2.II.6.23.
4647n; no 1920 ps; ss; no ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.P.Bn.241
4669n; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.Mg.901.
5204n; no 1920 ps; ss; no ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.S.2.II.7.18.
5321n; no 1920 ps; ss; ? ms; “Weimar” acceptance stamps; S.Op.V 319.
5335n; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.Mg.596.
5681n; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.B.8550.
6190n; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.D.I.131.R.
6360n; 1920 ps; ? ss; ? ms; ? acceptances; S.Op.I.446.
6655n; no 1920 ps; ? ss; ? ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; L.P.Th.Nr.1503
6711n; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.Br.I.1018.
6938n; no 1920 ps; ss; ms; ? acceptances; L.P.Th.Nr.1447
7138n; no 1920 ps; ss; ? ms; E/ArA4 acceptances; S.D.I.312.R.

There are three more (2977n, 3816n, 9483n) listed in my old posting on this (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=5525). 2977n was cited by Jan Still as being a Reichswehr pistol. I am not sure now where I got the other two from. If 9483n is a valid number, it would appear that a full series of 10,000 was produced. If not, the series may have terminated around 7500n.

Note that very few of the above have the 1920 government property stamp. I suspect that it was not required since the 1920 chamber date clearly identified these pistols as belonging to the government. DWM manufactured these specifically for military and police use.

Most of the police markings are from Prussian Schutzpolizei units but a few are from Thüringen and Bremen.

Hi Don
Thanks a lot!
It looks like that the “n” range was manufactured complete, as you says.
Hope we got lot of information and opinions in this investigation
reg. Jes

My 1920 DWM police Luger
 

Here is my information:
1. 1237n
2. No double date
3. Yes on SS
4. Yes on MS, but disabled
5. RRM, E/ArA4 ( three times )
6. S.D.I.99.R. R is X'd out
7. Other marks: E/ArA4 on top of barrel also 17 marked on butt of grip near mag opening.

Thanks Jim_R
Reg. Jes

Information 1920 Police
 

Greetings From Alaska! I jut purchased a police model luger my first! I have noticed my markings are close to being identified but each time I get close something doesn't add up. Here is what I have hopefully someone will know what i have.
Serial# Crown over N8452, also a mark that looks like a "T" on in computer words a "Tilda", the same mark is faint on the barrel. All numbers match. Sear safety is also installed. Any ideas?? Thanks for anyone's time.
Mo
Forgot one important thing....DWM on toggle

Hello Mo and welcome to the forum. I doubt very much if your Luger is one of those Jes is looking for but we will need a good bit more information and some good photos to tell you much about it. If you can start a new thread in the New Collectors forum with photos, I'm sure you will learn much more about your Luger. Meanwhile, stay warm!

P.S. What you describe as a "tilda" sounds like the letter suffix "r." If you look under the "Techinical Information" link in the http://www.lugerforum.com/ home page, you will find examples of suffixes to compare yours with.

Don, its here on Jan's http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=25435

N series Luger
 

Posting these pictures for Reg. Jes ,If you need more I can try and get clearer pictures

Thanks skimoe55
I will add your DWM Luger to the serial number schdule.
Regards Jes

Proofs
 

Proof shots

my n suffix 1920/1920 DWM POLICE
 

Hi
Here is my Police N suffix n Dwm Luger
SERIAL # 4605
1920/1920
NO SEAR SAFTETY
NO MAGAZINE SAFETY
3 E/AR A4
THREE POLICE UNITS
XXXOUT S.E.I. 2. 43
XXXOUT S.S. 2. II 6. 23
S.E.I. 23
THERE ARE PICTURES OF MY LUGER IN L.D. MAUS BOOK
HISTORY WRIT IN STEEL

Regards fellow N Suffix
Robert Hickey

Thanks Robert
I will add your luger ( +E/AR A4), :rockon:
Sorry for my late response to your post, work work ect
I think that your gun is already in the database data from Don M
Mvh Jes

1)Serial number 1508 n
2) Property date (1920/1920) 1920 Only
3) Sear safety (yes/no) Yes
4) Mag, safety (yes/no) It was removed. Frame was welded
5) Right Receiver Marks 3 Eagle over ArA4
6) Police unit marks S.Br.II.261.
7) Other unusual marks Proof mark on top of barrel Very Faint
Pictures In Unit Mark post of 12/07/2011

Thanks Coverk
I will add your P.08 to the list, soon

Reg. Jes

Jes, some photo details on 1920 DWM 167n, Police, S.D.I.82.R. Sear safety present, mag safety removed and frame slot filled, three E/ArA4 right receiver stamps, barrel marked E/ArA4, breech block marked E/WaA4. The chamber appears to have been carefully ground, to remove the date 1918. A faint remnant of the 8 remains under the 1920.

Helle Abzug
Many thanks for sharing your photos with us.
Very nice gun, with fine details.
:cheers:

reg. Jes

About the 1920-1921 timeframe: Conrad Matschoss of the VDI was responsible for the book on the 50th anniversary of DWM in 1939 (actually most work was done by Fr. Hassler). He wrote:

Ein Auftrag der Reichswehr und Sicherheitspolizei auf 40.000 Selbstladepistolen gab einem Teil der Waffenfabrik bis Mai 1921 Arbeit. Gegenüber den Mengen, die vor dem Krieg und vor allem im Krieg hergestellt wurden, waren dies zwar recht bescheidene Zahlen, aber sie hatten doch für die Firma außerordentlich wertvolle Bedeutung. Damit konnten nicht nur manche Maschinen wieder in Betrieb genommen, sondern vor allem auch ein Teil der Facharbeiter für Waffen und Munition wieder eingestellt und dem Unternehmen erhalten werden.

Roughly translated:

An order of the Reichswehr and Security police for 40.000 pistols provided work to a part of the weapons factory until May, 1921. It was a limited number compared to the numbers produced before and during the war, but it was exceptionally worthwile for the factory. Many machines could be taken back in production and also a part of the specialized work force for weapons and munitions production could be rehired and saved for the company.

It was a new awareness for me, it confirms the theory (Don M) that this "n" block of P.08 really were made ​​in 1920. And not before, as I see it
Thank you for the information Vlim

reg. Jes

Jes, here is another DWM 1920 "n" suffix police marked P.08 for your study:

Sn. 952n
grip strap property mark- S. Kg. 2(Xed). 96(Xed). 948. (Schutzpolizei Königsberg)
No sear safety or magazine safety installed
E/ArA4 inspection and proof stamps
fluted firing pin

The chamber appears to have been carefully ground, presumably to remove the existing date, and to facilitate stamping the 1920 date.

A very nice pistol, James.

Thanks James
I will add your Luger to the serial number schdule.
Very nice pic.
Regards Jes

Let's resurrect another old thread with a new pistol in the "n" suffix series # 3218n;
but not with a 1920 date, but 1921 AND a 1920 property stamp.

This curious series and this seemingly out of sequence number continue to be an enigma.
I'm not sure this one will help elucidate and will perhaps only add to the confusion.
:eek:
I "wanted" it as it was highly unusual to me to see a 1921 date with 1920 PS; only later I noticed it is an "n" suffix.

Obviously a police pistol, still with sear safety, had a mag safety which was removed and the slot welded and refinished. Pistol is matching except grips, and has #1/3218 magazine with */k inspection.

Absolutely an exciting P.08. Maybe there also is a police "n" block from 1921? Let's see what future reports will tell. Thank you for sharing it with us Don.
Reg. Jes/Sej-gun.

Definitely the lattter!!:surr:

I'll venture a WAG on this one. Perhaps it was manufactured in 1920 and serial numbered along with other "n" block P08s but set aside before stamping date. It may then have been resurrected in 1921, date stamped and issued.

Dwight Gruber knows way more than I about DWM manufacturing procedures. His comments on this speculation would be most welcome.

I'm afraid that I don't have much useful to offer here.

According to the 1910 production specifications, which were adhered to through WWII, date stamping was one of the first manufacturing steps, and was certified by the first of the army acceptance stamps.

I will note that Sturgess (red edition, pp 530-533) asserts that the m and n suffix, 1920 dated pistols follow the army production m suffix sequence "where it (production) had stopped in December, 1918." There is more than one problem with this: he does not recognize that 1918 military pistols are reported into the s suffix range; and he proposes arduous backing-and-filling of serial numbering to justify his conclusion, to mention only two.

I am still cogitating on all this.

--Dwight

Dwight, thanks for your observations. I was concerned that my proposed sequence of stamping steps was out of the ordinary. I share your skepticism about Sturgess' theory on the m and n suffixes (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...-suffixes-HELP). I hope your cogitation yields something. I've about run dry!

bring this subject back up, as it somehow got un-stickied and is an interesting subject

Another one reported in https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...415#post888415

Late to the party, found this thread a few days ago.

Here's mine;

SN "373 n"

1920 on chamber (lightly stamped)

Sear safety present / mag safety removed

Three "Dove" stamps on right receiver

Front strap marked "S. B. 11667."

Came with a Haenel / Schmeisser mag, un-numbered with a police eagle stamp on bottom.

Images of Police 373 n
 

Attached are some images of the pistol.

G2

Jes, have you developed any further conclusions about these guns?

Greg,


Judging by the numerals and the engraved-looking n on the barrel, I suggest it is a replacement. Is there a proof mark?


--Dwight

Dwight,

There is a proof on top of the barrel but it's very lightly stamped making it difficult to discern. I'll take another look and see it it will photograph.

G2

I must make a correction to my post regarding the explaination on the proofs on 373 n. They are not the "dove" as I stated but are the "Eagle AyA4" markings. Three are on the left side of the barrel extension and one is on the breechblock.

Attached is a pic of the barrel proof. Dwight, does this answer your question on a barrel replacement?

I used my new iPhone 11 Pro Max to take these pics. Except for the poor lighting I'm amazed at the detail one gets with this camera. Thanks.

G2

G2; The inspection stamps are actually ArA4 for Arüstungsamt 4. This office was later renamed Waffenamt 4.