Need help with .30 bullet selection
 

I am preparing to begin reloading for .30 Luger, and after reading through many posts here I am baffled concerning bullet selection. The gun is a mismatched 1900 AE: chamber neck is .335; bore slugged at .304 // .312. Since the median is .308 I am guessing that .308 would be correct for jacketed bullets, but I am no expert.

I am looking at the .308 Sierra 85 gr. round nose and Hornady 86 gr. round nose. I am also opened to lead bullets of proper size, whatever that is. Also interested in copper plated bullets. There are lots of .32 (.312) choices that could be sized down a bit. Has anyone sized the plated bullets? Advice? Thanks.

The bullets yo have picked out should work fine... I will let others who reload for this caliber comment further...

Another option, perhaps on the slightly heavy side would be lighter bullets that were intended for .30 Carbine... I remember back when I loaded that caliber that there were some dandy Round-nosed half-jacket slugs which expanded nicely that I believe were made by Hornady or Nosler... I think they were 110 Grains... as I said, perhaps a little on the heavy side, but if you can load them to the proper overall length (OAL) they will probably perform very well on small game.

I have not had any problems with the 30 Carbine 110 gr FMJ bullets. The extra length does not seem to affect accuracy or function. As for the weight, I made up a fixture to hold bullets so that they could be drilled. I use a 1/8" drill and adjust my depth to get the weight I want. Fixture & bullets in pic below.

I also made cartridges from .223 Remington [new] brass. The pic shows a stripper clip of 30 Mauser cartridges for my M30 Broomhandle, made from .223 brass and 110 gr bullets drilled out to 93 gr.

There was some speculation when I first tried this (back in the '70's; that's why that stripper clip of cartridges looks so old) that the drilled bullets would expand before passing through the cartridge shoulder, or that the .223 brass would bulge...Neither happened. I used a light target load of 5.0 grs of AL-5 (no longer available, I believe) with the 110 gr FMJ drilled down to 95 (or 93) grs...Same drilled bullet with 5.5 grs of AL-5 was a pretty good shooter... :thumbup:

This was with 30 Mauser in an M30 Broomhandle...I'm still experimenting with the 30 Luger loads/drilled bullets... :p

Too all,

Great information. Given the bore dimensions above, what would be the ideal size for lead bullets?

Rich, the drilling rig for adjusting bullet weight looks good. My concern would be that the friction created by the longer bearing surface of the bullet might increase pressure to an unsatisfactory level.
KFS

Hi Karl!

The 30 Carbine bullet is ~.130" longer than an 86 gr FMJ...

I started with a light load...And I've experimented with several powders...The M30 has a 5 1/2" barrel...My experience is empirical...

If you have doubts, then disregard... ;)

(Lemme look here...one...two...three...ten...yes, I still have ten fingers...) :D

Cast lead bullets for the 30 Luger should be .312 in.
I have new WW 30 Luger brass for $30/100 postage paid.

Has anybody tried the Ranier 100 grain bullet? It looks like a great possibility to me:

Reading the Midway reviews leads me to believe the plating on these is rather robust and will stand up to the velocities attained in the 7.65 Luger.

I am a veteran reloader for 45 years and many calibers. My very first caliber to reload was the 9mm Luger using a Lyman 310 tool!

I'm yet to try my hand with the 7.65 Luger. I have dies but have a hard time getting momentum because I think about chasing after those damn little expensive pieces of brass. Reading the various posts on this forum makes me want to give the little bottle neck a try.

Some additional questions:

Does the heavier bullet present a problem with sight regulation?

What's the downside to using the 100 grain bullet?

Does anybody have a "Pet Load" for the 7.65 using 100 grain bullets? I know the drill: Start low and work up. My mileage may vary.

Thanks in advance,
Curl



Rainier LeadSafe Bullets 32 Caliber (312 Diameter) 100 Grain Plated Flat Nose

Midway P/N 889567

Would the flat nose on the Midway bullet be a concern as far as reliable feeding in a Luger is concerned?

The flat appears to be about 1/2 caliber. I don't think the outside shape is much different from the Hornady XTP. But the shape is one of the questions in my mind too.

How does the Hornady XTP do in the 7.65?

Hornady XTP Bullets 30 Caliber (309 Diameter) 90 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point

Midway Product #: 729749

Another possibility I'm considering. Has anybody tried this bullet?

Meister Hard Cast Bullets 32 Caliber (312 Diameter) 94 Grain Lead Flat Nose

Midway Product #: 689363

I have not tried any of the mentioned bullets, but am very interested in hearing any results that you might achieve. I sent an Email to Handloader Magazine asking for an new article in their magazine on loadings for the 30Luger. I don't know if it will lead to anything, but I had to try.

I have only, so far, loaded my 30 Luger brass with the Hornady 86gr, and the Sierra 86gr jacketed bullets. They seem to work well. I have been using Red Dot, as I believe that a fast powder works well in small cases....others disagree. My ammo will cycle my '21 DWM with a 4in bbl. I keep looking for a good SAFE loading utilizing the 110gr JSP bullet for the M1 Carbine, as I own a "lot" of them. I haven't found anything yet.

Let us know what you find out. I am waiting(3-4 months) for BarSto to make me 2 barrels in 30 Luger for a BHP and Colt Defender. That should be a lot of fun if I can get everything to work like I want it to.

Hi:

I've used these.

The problem with them is the fact that the lube groove extends down into the powder area of the cartridge. Upon firing, much, if not all, of the lube is consumed with the powder charge, rather than "smoking" the barrel to avoid leading.

OAL of 29mm feed perfectly for me. Accuracy was only ok by my standards, though.

If memory serves, these were designed for a .32-20 rifle originally.

Sieger

Hi:

This looks like a good possibility, as the original "flat" on the DWM 9mm truncated cone was 4mm. I can only assume it was the same on the DWM 7.65 truncated cone bullet.

I've measured original DWM bullets at .309 inches, though the barrel grooves on the 7.65s are exactly 7.9mm (.311 inches) per the original drawings.

I've fired up to .312 bullets through the 7.65 with no problems.

Hope this info helps.


Sieger

Hi:

This was a good idea, but frankly, with the current writing staff they have, I don't know of anyone there knowledgeable enough about Luger shooting to even write such an article.

Respectfully

Sieger

Hi:

Now this little bullet really looks interesting to me!! Good find!!!

One question, how is the weight consistency of these? Are they a quality product?

I don't think a seven grain differential in weight would be material as far as sight regulation goes, as I've never really had a problem between 115 and 125 grain 9mm bullets. Possible down side of 100 grainers vs. 93 grainers, nothing in my book.

If I were loading these, here is where I'd start.

OAL: 29mm

Powder: SR 4756

Charge Development Range: 4.8 grains to about 5.6 grains

I'm going to order some of these, right now, for my own handloading development.

Hope this helps!


Sieger

Hi:

Though we don't see a lot of them around now, the original DWM loadings for the 7.65mm offered a truncated cone bullet quite simmilar to their more popular 9mm one.

With proper OAL, the flat pointed Midway should feed like a dream in a 7.65mm Luger with its springs in spec.

Sieger

Hi:

Brilliant!!

This just proves again that necessity is the mother of invention!

Sieger

I am familiar with Ranier bullets in two other applications. They produce a swaged and plated 230 grain bullet for the .45ACP. It's a round nose design that looks just like hardball. It's very well thought of among the .45ACP crowd - both for the 1911 and also for the Thompson Sub Machinegun. They sell them by thousands. It's a great bullet. There are people who say they will shoot nothing but this bullet in a vintage Colt TSMG.

Another Ranier bullet I use is their .50 cal bullet made for the .500 Lindbaugh and others. It's 335 grains and .500". I use that bullet, and have shot many hundreds, in my Purdey .500 3" BPE. I paper patch them to .515" for the rifle. They are the perfect weight (original bullet was 340 grains) and the perfect diameter for paper patching.

The Ranier bullets are excellent quality. I think this little 100 grain .312 bullet should be a gas in the Parabellum. I plan to order some with my next Midway order. If they don't do well in the Luger I'll run them through my little .32 S&W Long.

As for the Meister bullet I was suspicious for the reason you mentioned about the lube groove being too low. I was also worried that the crimp groove might interfere with feeding. In reading through the posts of others who have loaded the 7.65mm I found one post describing feeding trouble caused by such a bullet with the crimp groove exposed and catching on the feed ramp or something.

There are several loaders who report good success with the Hornady bullet.

For the cost conscious (tightwad) loader like me, the Ranier bullet jumps to the front.

Thank you very much for your experienced reply. Please keep me updated on how the Ranier does for you. I suspect you will be shooting them before I do.

Curl

I have used this bullet in the past:
http://www.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-...-Short-Jacket/

It worked well on paper and Armadillos..

This week I received in hand a box of 500 of the Ranier .312" bullets (100 grains). I loaded up 20 using 5.3 grains SR4756 and a CCI small pistol primer. The bullets are seated out to max overall length, leaving comfortable clearance in the magazine. I'll shoot these in the next few days and report back with results.

Question: I need to find an easy way to flare the case mouth on these little buggers. I have an RCBS 2 die set. I'm chamfering the mouths, but bullets would seat a little easier with a flare. Has anybody come up with a method short of buying a Lyman "M" die?

Curl

Curl,

I will be most interested in your results. I am curious about how much harder the plated bullets are compared to lead and whether .312 is appropriate for a plated bullet. As for flaring the case mouth, I just ordered a Lee Universal Case Expanding Die, on sale at Midway for about $10. I will report on whether it works for .30 Luger.
KFS

Last weekend I loaded a batch of 7.65mm using a little .313" cast semi-wadcutter bullet I have for use in my .32 S&W Long. They chambered perfectly and shot more accurately than Fiocci FMJ factory rounds. Seating these underscored the need for a flared case mouth as there was some shaved lead. My load was 5.0 grains of SR4756. The action of my DWM 1923 Commercial cycled fine but wouldn't hold open. That's why I jacked up my powder charge to 5.3 grains with the batch loaded using the Ranier bullet.

Seating the plated bullet didn't result in shaving but it would go smoother with a flared mouth. I have a .30 cal. Lyman "M" die I use with cast loads in .30-06, but I don't think it will adjust down low enough for this tiny round. Also, the expander spud might be too long on the first stage for the 7.65mm (might hit bottom in the case). Obviously from my speculative comments I haven't dug it out of my archives to give it a try. My expander for the .32 S&W Long won't work because of the smaller body of that case.

I'm not familiar with the Lee universal die. Do you have a product number for it at Midway?

I keep asking myself why in the crap I'm playing with this troublesome round? Is it a more spiritual experience than firing the ubiquitous and easily loaded 9mm through a Luger?

I have one of the cute little buggers in my pocket here at work today. Take it out, fondle it, set it on my desk and eyeball it . . . What can I say? :thumbsup:

Curl

Another observation from my demented mind. For those who have no stomach for paying the price of 7.65mm brass there is another solution.

I read the thread about making brass from .223 cases - not for me! Too much work. Cut the case, neck it down, trim to final length, ream inside, then you should anneal it - - No! Don't get me wrong, I would do it if nothing else were available.

We can't neck down 9mm Luger cases because they are too short. I read the thread about making a custom chamber just for this use. Not for me.

Here's my suggestion for the "do it yourself case forming society":

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=270799

Buy a bunch of the Starline .38 Super Competition brass. It's rimless, unlike the .38 Super. It's long enough but will need to be trimmed after necking down. I necked down a standard .38 Super round to get a length measurement. It looks like they end up about .015" too long. That's an easy trim job.

In the end, is your savings worth the effort to trim them? That's the question you must consider. You can have new Winchester 7.65mm brass for $0.30 per round.

Anyway, this solution is one to file away for future reference in the event things change.

Curl

I slugged my DWM and found it measures .312" just ahead of the chamber and leade.

I've used Ranier plated bullets in .45ACP (almost 1000 down the spout at this time) and as a paper-patched projectile in my .500 3" BPE (quite a few hundred down the spout). They have a hard skin, but they are soft lead inside. No problem.

Curl

Just for giggles and grins, here's the .500" Ranier 335 grain bullet I use in my Purdey .500 BPE. I patch them up to .515".

Curl

Cpt. Curl:

I called Hornady with the same question, about two years ago, and they sold me a .32acp expander die. The expander itself looks like an acorn, but works just great for .311 to .313 bullets in the 7.65 Parabellum.

Sieger

Hi:

For 7.65 Parabellum, you might price the Starline brand or the Fiocchi (spelling) brand (1/2 the cost of Win.) as both should be available at Graff and Sons.

Sieger

Curl -

Ballistically, any idea how your .500 Purdey BPE might compare with a .54 427 gain bullet in front of 120 gains of Pyrodex? I'm assuming it would be more impressive, right?

Thanks

My .500 3" BPE nitro-for-black load clocks at 2040 fps with the 335 Ranier bullet.

The standard black powder load in this cartridge was 4 1/2 drams (123 grains) of Curtis & Harvey's #6 behind a 340 grain bullet.

Here's a view of my Purdey: http://rbsiii.com/collection/rifles/purdey_500bpe/

We are straying away from the subject of this thread.

Curl

The .38 Super Competition brass doesn't have the semi-rimmed case of the .38 Super. It has the same head as a 9mm Para. That's the point of my choice of that brass.

This point should be stressed, and it applies to every cartridge. There must always be sufficient clearance within the chamber for release of the bullet. I was mindful of this, and mine is ok with the .312 and .313 bullets. But again, just because mine is ok doesn't mean that every pistol is ok. This determination must be made for each chamber.

Curl

The UPS man just arrived with my Midway order. The Lee Case Expanding Die works just fine for .30 Luger. The Midway number is 140461.
KFS

Karl,

Many thanks. That looks like a winner!

Curl

Cpt. Curl:

You got me thinking, so I just ordered 1,000 Fiocchi (SP) 7.65 Luger cases from Graffs for just a little over $13.00 per hundred with my FFL (C&R) discount.

I'll have to wait about 8 weeks before I can do any handloading, however.

Just an unrelated question, but do you lube your paper patches after installing them? I paper patch for an 11.15X60R Mauser rifle, and have found this helpful to accuracy.

Something else about both the 9mm and 7.65mm Parabellum cartridges, they are both very sensitive to even 1/10 grain variations in powder charge and OAL variations as well. Find the right load, and you will be shooting three shot "one holers" all afternoon!


Sieger

Yes, I use the lube recommended by Paul Matthews in his book - beeswax and vaseline.

Here's a little article I wrote about loading paper patch bullets:

http://rbsiii.com/PaperPatchedBullets/index.html

It's mainly about how I mass produce the patches but also touches on various other aspects.

Curl

Curl:

Great article!!

As I shoot both black (Swiss) and smokeless (IMR 4064 or Blackhorn 209) in my 11mm Mauser, I've shied away from lube with a petroleum base (vaseline) and use Safflower oil instead. With smokeless, the old NRA formula still works great 50% Alox/50% Beeswax.

It's nice to have contact with a well experience handloader!!

Sieger

I made a very quick trip to the range yesterday evening to try out my loads with the Ranier bullet. As stated above, my loads for this try are:

Fiocchi brass;
5.3 grains SR4756;
CCI 500 primer;
Rainier 100 grain .312" bullet;
1.123" OAL.

Here are a couple of quick photos of the little guy:

All shooting was done with my DWM 1923 Commercial shooter, #7762 l. It is in excellent condition with a 98mm barrel and fine bore. On this forum it would be called an Alphabet Commercial (or something of the sort).

My first thought was to try to capture one of the fired bullets. I filled 8 one gallon milk jugs with water, lined them up and shot. The bullet went through all eight jugs of water and kept going, so all I got from that endeavor was a mess.

I fired 18 more rounds for accuracy and function. Accuracy was so-so; not acceptable from what I have seen with this pistol.

Function was also so-so. There were no failures to eject. There were two failures to fully feed. In those instances the cartridge entered the chamber, but not fully. I think I know why.

The action held open on the last shot every time it was supposed to do so.

I believe my OAL was too long, and that this caused the two failures to fully feed. It appeared to be binding slightly as the cartridge made the corner around the feed ramp going into the chamber. In my next tryout loads I will reduce the OAL to 1.115"

The load shot clean. There was no lead residue in the bore. Powder residue wiped out with a patch and solvent.

I believe with more tinkering a good load will be found. More reports as facts develop.

Curl

Curl,

The two jams you describe above sound like the typical, annoying "Luger Jam".

Cartridge O.A.L. is critical for positive action function. Your tests for proper O.A.L. should be done before you go the range. For a good explanation of how to determine proper O.A.L., for a new bullet type, please see my thread on "Determining Proper Cartridge O.A.L." in this section of the site. I bet your O.A.L. is too short, but you won't know until you have gone through the pre-firing development stage, then the range test. The original O.A.L.s, of both the 9mm and 7.65mm DWM truncated cone bullets, were right at 1.14 inches (29mm). I have noted that the wider the "flat" on the nose of the bullet, the shorter the proper O.A.L. for proper function. Remembering that the original DWM "flat" was 4mm, you might want to measure the "flat" on your subject bullet. If I were testing, I'd start at 1.15 inches and work down .01 inch at a time until I found perfect function.

Once you have determined the proper O.A.L., for the bullet you are testing, then you are free to move on to the charge development stage. Again, I'd start at about 4.8 grains, or so, of your SR 4756 and work up 0.1 of a grain, at a time, until you get perfect action function and accuracy. Accuracy, for me, is three out of three touching at 25 yards, shot over sand bags.

When the action starts working (with proper hold open) and the groups start tightening, then you are in the range to develop a great load.

I'd be interested in seeing the necks of your fired cases. Do the necks show any pressure signs; for instance, chamber milling marks engraved into the brass?

By the way, your initial load shot through eight one gallon milk jugs?!?. If you would test again, after you are comfortable with your load, I'd really be interested in seeing just how many jugs it takes to actually stop your bullet.

Sieger

Here are some 30 Luger loads that I developed several years ago:
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x...LugerLoads.jpg

Favorite....
 

Hi Hugh, to cut right to the chase... what is your favorite .30 Luger powder?? Not load, but just the powder you feel is the most consistant, easiest to load.. in other words, fool proof... (most important quality!:jumper:).. You too Sieger... ??... best most favorite... Best to all, til...lat'r...GT