The "X"
 

As I explore my 1939 Mauser I keep finding more markings. There is a fairly large "X" possibly engraved rather than stamped on the front frame right in front of the trigger guard. The lines of the X are curved and the top ends are thicker. What's it mean?

Jim

Serial number suffix
 

Jim,


Most Luger serial numbers (but not all) contain an alpha letter suffix that is an integral part of the serial number. You will find this suffix on the frame near the the front of the trigger guard as yo have described. In your case your serial number must include this "X" on any official paperwork (like licensing and registration paperwork if any exists) to uniquely identify it from others.


To leave off this suffix can cause your Luger to be confused with the many others of the same serial number. There are many cases where a Luger has been identified as Stolen because it was confused with another when one or both owners failed to note the letter suffix on their ownership papers or bill of sale.


regards,


John

Re: Serial number suffix
 

John - This is different. The serial suffix is a small "w". This is a "letter" almost one-fourth inch tall, and cruder, not like the fancy suffix letters. It is below the serial numbers, right in front of the trigger guard. It was put there on purpose, but I don't think it's stamped.

Jim

Re: Serial number suffix
 

Hi,

What variation of a 1939 Mauser do you have? A 1939 S/42, a 1939 42, a 1939 Banner -- E/C,? E/F,? E/L,? -- Contract Banner of some kind? -- From the location of the "X" it is not a factory mark that I am aware of. I would guess it is post WWII. Is this an import Luger? Refinished Luger?

Jim can you post a scan or photo of the mark and it's location?
 

along with the other identifying marks on your Luger? this could spark some discussion or prompt an answer that sits lurking in the hearts of forum members but they have inadequate info to respond with confidence...


-John

Re: Serial number suffix
 

According to Costanzo (World 0f Lugers) on page 207, item 176-176a this is destruction proof for Lugers which did not meet factory or military specs and were deemed hazardous. They were to be destroyed and not reissued or reworked. He further states some of them excaped. I have a DWM with that X on the left side of the frame near the chamber and have fired many rounds thru it and nothing adverse happened, yet.

"X"
 

An 'X'appears on about 25% of the recent imports from the former USSR....all were dipped...many reworked...some are like NEW!


Orv Reichert

Re: Jim can you post a scan or photo of the mark and it's location?
 

John,

I'll see if I can borrow a digital camera and take a shot at it. It might be a few days. If some of the folks would post some X's I can sure announce when there is a match in terms of the type of X and its location.

The gun is a 1939 with the number 42 on the top slide. It is in very fine condition, all matching except magazine, but may be refinished. There are a couple of slightly rough spots that might have had some rust that are blue and probably shouldn't be. I bought it as a shooter and it does that very well.

It has all the proof marks I believe, so I think it must have been accepted for service -- unless it was accepted and then unaccepted. I know nothing of its provinance except the dealer had quite a variety including several he said passed through the hands of the Russians.

Jim

Re: "X"
 

Orv,

I think you hit it.

Jim

Re: Serial number suffix
 

John, your 101% correct. Many years ago I ended up between a rock and a hard place due to my omission of the suffix letter. I was working and that time and it really caused a flap, especially when it involved jurisdictions from another State.

Re: "X"
 

I read somewhere that the "X" was supposed to be crossed rifles. That's why the lines are wider at the bottom of the "X". It was a Russian acceptance mark put on after

"reconditioning", prior to putting the weapon into

storage. Both of my K98's have that mark, and they were Russian "reworks".

Dean

P.S. discovered this site a few weeks ago. You folks

have really been helpful!

"X"
 

sorry.....it is just an inspection or viewers mark of some type...


I believe the 'crossed rifles' was just someones imagination running wild........that was an Imperial stamp, wasn't it?


Orv Reichert

Re: "X"
 

Thanks Dean -- will pull out the magnifying glass.

Jim

Re: "X"
 

OPPS!! Ok Orv I won't pull it out.

Jim

Re: "X"
 

Jim, The straight legged X (sometimes in a circle) that several of you have described is usually found below the serial number on the front of the frame or on the left receiver and is definately a Russian rework mark.

Re: "X"
 

That's it. Thanks Tom!!

Jim

Re: "X"
 

Hi Tom,


That may or may not be true - it also appears on Lugers that were never in Soviet Russian hands. Also, not all of the Lugers (and P.38â??s and Kar98k rifles) imported from the CIS states have the â??Xâ?�.


While the â??Xâ?� is a great deal more common on the WWII German arms imported from the CIS countries, itâ??s an open question whether the â??Xâ?� was stamped on the arms after they were captured, or before. It could well be that the â??Xâ?� really is a Third Reich mark indicating the arms were condemned, that the Soviets captured the warehouses where these arms were stored prior to destruction, and the Soviets took them home and reworked them.


But this is all guessing. In simple truth we donâ??t know when, why, or whom the â??Xâ?� was stamped.


Best regards,


Kyrie

"X" is Russian -- rest is stricly speculation! (EOM)
 

X mark is Russian!!!!
 

Until a few years ago, the only guns we saw with the 'X' stamp were "Nam bring backs". [source probably USSR?]


No other P38s were seen with it over the years..and, none were seen in Germany [according to my buddy Alex Kruzek]


Then,when Alex went thru the cases of guns Imported from the Ukraine, he saw about 20% of them were 'X' stamped. Alex personally examined more than 3000 guns in that group.


I will accept his conclusion/statement that the X mark is a Russian stamp of some type.


Orv Reichert

Re: X mark is Russian!!!!
 

Hi Orv,


Purely as a data point, I have personally examined a 1940 dated, 42 coded Luger, stamped with the â??Xâ?� that was never in Soviet Russian hands. The Soviets may well have used the â??Xâ?� stamp, but if so they were not the only ones to do so. Attributing any specific â??Xâ?� stamp to any specific origin is risky.


Best regards,


Kyrie

X mark
 

True, Kyrie...and, I should have said that my comments pertain only to the P38. But the X on the guns from the former USSR is generaly made with two strikes of a chisel and not a letter stamp...readily recognized as such. sometimes, they don't even cross!


The latest 'PLOY' is that the sellers are referring to it as a 'CAPTURE MARK' [whatever that means?]


Orv

Re: X mark
 

Hi Orv,


This one is a fascinating subject. We know the Germans sometimes marked firearms (and Lugers in particular) with an â??Xâ?�, and reasonably believe the Soviets may have done so to - but only on some captured arms. We have no solid information on why the â??Xâ?� was used by anyone, but do have near endless fun and entertaining speculation. My favorite poser is, â??If the Soviets did make the â??Xâ?�, why on some firearms and not on others?â?� And I mean that as an honest question rather than as an argument that some of the â??Xâ?� marks arenâ??t Soviet.


Maybe someday someone will come across an old Soviet document that can shed some light on this one - I certainly hope so!


Best regards,


Kyrie

Re: X mark
 

Hi Kyrie,

Do we know that the Germans marked Lugers with an X? How do we know this? I have looked at a lot of Mauser produced Lugers and I have never seen a single original issued Luger with an "X" on it. The only "X" that I am aware of on a Luger is the import ones. From what I have gotten out of this post, the suggestion is that the Germans had a large supply of rejected Lugers with an "X" on them, and the Soviets over-ran the storage before they were destroyed? I find this concept very hard to believe because if the Lugers were rejects they never would have passed the testing and would not have a accepted test proof. In my opinion, the "X" mark is strictly a post WWII mark and is strictly not a German Military or police mark of WWII. I am not aware of any information available to suggest that the "X" had anything to do with original WWII Lugers, and only started showing up when the Soviet imports Lugers started showing up, so please share any information that suggests otherwise. Thanks. --

Re: X mark
 

I have a 1939 Luger with an X stamped or engraved on the bottom of the frame in front of the trigger guard , below a 3 digit #.[I assume is the serial #] My father brought this gun home from WWII. He came home in 1944. I have been trying to get more info about this gun, nothing seems to come together. It has matching part #'s. [Mauser] logo on top, 1939 stamped on the receiver on top, and a German Eagle with an X inside of a circle with a letter L in front of the logo. this is on the right side. On the left side of the receiver in front of the trigger above the serial # is a logo horizontally a crown with a U under it. Any info would be appreciated. thanks Ed.

Mauser Police Luger
 

Hi,

You have what is called a Mauser Banner Police Luger. The date of manufacture was 1939, the Mauser is referred to as a Banner, the E/L on the right receiver is the police acceptance mark, and the Crown U on the left receiver is the commercial inspection mark, which is actually a test mark on these police guns. The "X" below the serial number on your Luger I am presuming is part of the serial number -- for instance 295 X. All of the 1939 E/L police Lugers had a letter suffix with the serial number. The 1939 E/L's are only found in the W and X suffix. Your serial number is actually 295x and not 295. These are nice Lugers and are fairly hard to find.

Re: X mark
 

Hi Bill,


See my post in reply to Orv, above. Lugers with the â??Xâ?� were observed long before the recent rash of imports, and this is why there is an entry for the â??Xâ?� mark in Costanzo.


The â??Soviets captured a bunch of Lugers marked for destructionâ?� is yet one more pure speculation concerning the â??Xâ?�, and nothing more. It assumes pistols withdrawn from service as beyond repair or salvage. The simple truth is we have no evidence of who (other than the Germans) marked the Lugers with the â??Xâ?�, when they were marked, or what the â??Xâ?� means. We donâ??t even know if there was more than one agency involved in the â??Xâ?� mark. We do know the Third Reich used the â??Xâ?�, as it has been found on Lugers fully provenanced from capture until they were examined. Beyond that, all is speculation.


Best regards,


Kyrie