Is this a rare Swiss Luger?
 

Hi,

Came across this Swiss Luger on a UK auction site.

There's only two pics in the auction catalogue and I've pasted the auction description verbatim below.

Hope its of interest.

Auction description:

A RARE 9mm (PARA) 'LUGER' SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL, MODEL 'SWISS 06/29 COMMERCIAL', serial no. P26292, 
circa 1943, with 4 3/4in. sighted barrel, toggle with Swiss cross mark, grip safety, chequered plastic grips with 'F & W' logo, no provision for shoulder stock, all matching numbers and original magazine with bakelite base, the whole retaining much original finish throughout 

Provenance: Records state that only 100 Swiss 06/29 pistols (including one prototype) were produced in 1943 from commercial parts already on hand (denoted by the 'P' prefix to the serial number) and by converting existing military pistols. More recent studies have suggested that far less than 100 were actually manufactured, and that some were subsequently re-converted back to their original calibre of 7.65mm (Para). Furthermore, for a while only two official conversions were acknowledged to exist, serial numbers P26291 and P26300, subsequently however a small number have come to light including the example offered here.

Swiss 9mm lugers are an interesting, and difficult bunch. By the time that the Bern arsenal was done bumming around and finally got a working prototype that produced acceptable results accuracy wise, the army already had decided to go with the P210 design instead.

Tinkering with the opening curve, using wrong steel types and generally thinking they were smarter than the Germans meant that the Swiss 9mm was an utter failure.

Swiss gun engineering knowledge is often overrated, as are most of their products :D

If authentic, is is a relatively rare Luger. Unfortunately it is easily faked. I saw two of them on the same table at a Tulsa show one year. Chances of that being for real is probably astronomical.

The Swiss 06/1929 Parabellum is the only Luger design to earn world championship honors. Unlike any Luger ever made, the SIG P210 digests all kinds of 7.65mm and 9mm Para ammo with comparable accuracy. Based on these distinctions, Swiss gun engineering knowledge appears to trump its German counterparts.

I think that is a good example of the way the Swiss tend to work (or at least did, they did change their methods during the last decennia): Overengineering their products to such an extent that they are excellent target pistols, albeit a tad on the expensive side, and not much better as a purely military sidearm than many solutions that cost only a fraction of their guns.

By the time they won a world championship, neither DWM nor Mauser were actively manufacturing lugers so not a lot of comparison possible there. If you look at the early 1900s, you will notice that many championships were won using DWM pistols.

During the development of the 9mm 06/29 the Swiss were shocked when they found out that an old DWM performed better than their solution :)

I like the 06/29 because it is a milestone in the Parabellum development, although not the prettiest one. But with all its intended improvements it is not a better gun than any other Parabellum pistol, just a more cost-effective solution (according to Swiss reasoning, at least).

The SIG P210, although a newer gun, never did manage to obtain the accuracy of the Parabellum pistol, which is somewhat painful as well. And I doubt it was much cheaper to make either. :)

The 9mm SIG P210 is somewhat less accurate than the 7.65mm W+F 06/1929. When both are chambered for the same round, the difference is negligible. In over three decades of shooting I never found a 4" 9mm Luger that could be relied upon to cycle any commercial load, out of any available magazine. The cannon assembly of the P08 is far too light to handle the recoil impulse of the standard 9mm load consistently, with any reasonable springing arrangement. Modest improvements realized by lengthening the barrel or narrowing down the bore to the original 7.65mm dimension cannot suffice to adapt Hugo Borchardt's toggle action design to modern military service. Sooner or later, almost every autopistol manufacturer reverted to the Browning lilting barrel, short recoil design. The Swiss were ahead of the curve in 1947.

I just bought this pistol from Holts and will review it in this space upon import.

I have never been a fan of the lug-less, non-grip-knob Lugers...but the grip safety here looks odd...The pistol seems to be on "Fire", but the grip safety is depressed...

Is the grip safety independent of the thumb safety (free to swing in or out), or is it pinned to the thumb safety mechanism (so that it would follow the thumb safety linkage)???

I do not know whose engineering is better but I know one thing for sure. Both design a proven to be most accurate autoloaders out of production line. How do I know that? Every time I borrow either Luger or SIG to people on the range they outshoot themselves.
P08 is artwork designed from scratch, while P210 is kind of Frankenstein creation that borrowed all the best features of some guns, and some sturdiest solutions of another guns of that time. Instead of monster Swiss created beauty. What more could they have asked from a pistol in 1947. Simplicity, sturdiness, accuracy, no weak parts. Design was bulletproof. Than IPSIC came….today’s shooters demand bells and whistles, military of that time didn’t.

As for the Swiss engineering thing - keep in mind that almost all Colt’s revolvers clock-work is identical copy of Swiss revolver Model 1882. With some improvements same design being in Colt’s revolvers since New Service model produced in 1898. Off course Colt being master business planer they got their design patented around 1887-88 in US. See I just had to find that Swiss link. Al of this time everybody was doing what Chinese doing today. But I wouldn’t go there to discuss Chinese engineering capabilities.

Jan Foss of Norway won the 1976 IPSC World Shoot II Salzburg, Austria with a customized SIG P210-5.

Probably an easily fixed broken safety lever spring. At £1,264.38, the gun is cheap enough even as a fantasy piece. I am skeptical about claims that Swiss Lugers cannot be made to work with 9mm barrels.On W+F 1906/29 pistols, putting the safety lever on "S" merely prevents the grip safety from being depressed.

And why is that American magazine release is called 'American' when it is not American. In 1899 Colt M1900 didn’t have it while Luger did have button mag release incorporated in its design in late 1890s. (what year is Luger patent?) Prior to 1911 American pistols didn’t have this feature. Even the Borchardt C-93 pistol had one incorporated in design in 1893 long before Americans did it. Go figure.

Neither are hamburgers or french fries, and yet we export them worldwide.

LOL You are not helping me with my frustration Michael, not at all.:rolleyes:

Usually the safety lever spring is not broken (but as Michael said, it is easily replaced if it is). About 90+% of the time, the grip safety is not properly assembled to engage the spring.:)

It doesn't help that the Belgians invented the French Fries either :)

Michael, and rightly so. Documented evidence show that the alterations made to the opening curve of the 06/29 design hindered the development of a reliable Mauser Parabellum in 4" 9mm and in 6" 9mm and in 4" .30 luger. Since the action of a Parabellum is a physics balancing act, you can imagine the frustration of the German engineers in the late sixties.

Documented evidence also shows that the guys at Bern had problems coming up with an accurate 9mm version of the 06/29, which was finally solved by using a completely stress free gun barrel steel. Which in turn created a functional Swiss 06/29 in 9mm...

I would really like to know why the Swiss decided to change that opening curve of the 06/29. They must have had a compelling reason to do so, judging from surviving test guns where the opening curve hat been altered.

With so many possible combinations of springs, spring tensions, steel types, steel hardness variations, powder types, loads, bullet types, rifling patterns finding a working combination was a matter of trial and error. This may explain how several different makers reached different conclusions and created different solutions.

It's about time to ransack the Swiss archives once again :)

I guess the toggle action is essentially an American design , first proving successful in the Henry Rifle and going on to be even more successful in the 1866 and 1873 Winchester.

Next came another American, Maxim who used it in his very successful Machinegun. Considering the millions of rounds fired out of maxim and Vickers machineguns using a toggle action , it can hardly be described as mechanically finicky or unsound.

Didn't Hugo Borchardt spend time in America? perhaps thats where he got the idea !?

I like the Swiss Luger grip better than the German
 

I happen to like the Swiss Luger's grip better than the German gun. I love my Interarms Swiss Pattern 6" barreled Mauser Luger!

However, why is it so hard to find a hardshell holster for the 6" gun?:rolleyes:

[/QUOTE]
Didn't Hugo Borchardt spend time in America? perhaps thats where he got the idea !?[/QUOTE]

Of course....He worked for the Winchester Repeating Arms Co...and seems that he developed a Revolver , which purpose was to force Colt to cease production of rifles...

Those holsters look like this, from a Members web site.

http://www.lugerlp08.com/Holster_files/image010.jpg

The show up on ebay and gun shows from time to time.

Thank you Ben!
 

Thank you Ben! I see the Magazine Holder on top but is there a Loading tool pouch inside?

Is there anyone who makes a Hardshell 6"??
 

Is there anyone who makes a Hardshell holster for the 6" guns??

Yes, and how. Try this outfit.

Didn't Hugo Borchardt spend time in America? perhaps thats where he got the idea !?[/QUOTE]

Of course....He worked for the Winchester Repeating Arms Co...and seems that he developed a Revolver , which purpose was to force Colt to cease production of rifles...[/QUOTE]

I was surprised by your comment as I have never heard of a Borchardt revolver!? But your right, and here is as good an explanation as any on the topic. http://www.airlandseaweapons.com/blo...oading-pistol/

But it seems they were never put into production ! shame I guess!

HKman, The holster that Interarms sold did not have a tool pouch at all. It did have a provision to place a cleaning rod in a round formed sleeve along the side/edge of the holster. A friend of mine here in Las Vegas has a 4" model. Its nicely made but the leather is thick and still stiff after many years. Not pliable.

Mike you make Holsters?
 

Mike you make Holsters?

Ben the Interarms version isn't really what I'd call a true "Luger Holster".

However, the Hardshell Holsters aren't really pliable either. I like the traditional Holster with the Magazine pouch and loading tool pouch under the flap.

Most of these holsters don't have a cleaning rod pouch.

No. As Len Deighton put it, "I'm a let-someone-else-do-it man."

Mike so then what outfit were you referring to?
 

Mike,

So then what "outfit" were you referring to? There was no phone, email address, or website in your posting.

I'm looking for a Hardshell Holster but for a 6" Luger-not the 4" pistol.

Click on the links.

This Forum is not configured to show active links in a contrasting color...click on the word 'this' in Michael's post... ;)

(Or his 'and how') :D

I see it now but there's no magazine pouch!
 

I see it now but there's no traditional magazine pouch!:(

I'd rather have the magazine pouch than the cleaning rod holder.

Does anyone make anything to order?

The Navy holster has no "traditional magazine pouch". Many holster makers take custom orders. None worth their salt will work on a spurious pattern.

I know this is an old thread , BUT, do all Swiss Lugers that were made for the Swiss Army adopted in 06 to whenever in 1945 when they replaced it, DID they all look like this, no knurling in the toggles, no frame fins, and the different looking receiver nose? There is one on U-Tube that he insists it be called a Parabellum.

Only the 06/29 did, and some early post-war Mauser pistols which were based on it.

Insisting on calling the pistol a 'Parabellum' has some merit. It's called the 'Parabellum Pistol' officially after all. If one drives a Chevy, one may just as well call it a Chevy :)

SO how many were made. Are they rare, there is one on U-Tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RjqB...0EFD5EE8922217

something like this would be how common? ANd oh yes, HE DOES not want you to call his 06/29 a Luger!!! SO don't dare say in his comments, "I like your Luger." It sure is a beauty!

Well, his title of the video states Parabellum/Luger disassembly, but don't tell him I said so.

It took me over six years to get my hands on this 9mm Para W+F P06/29 serial no. P26292. A full comparative multimedia review to follow.

The 10 Pistols 06/29 with SN P26291 to SN P26300 were 9mm test guns of the Waffenfabrik Bern (W+F). They were used for precision tests in Dezember 1943. Four of the 9mm pistols performed as good as the Pistols 06/29 in caliber 7,65mm, six of them were worse (but still not to fare away from the precision of the 7,65mm pistols). The Pistol SN P26292 was one of the worse six...:)

These tests were quite successful, because one year earlier, tests with other Pistols 06/29 in 9mm showed much worse results (comparable to the precision of a German 9mm Pistol 08, which was tested in 1941 by the W+F).

The test pistols from 1942 had the following SN: 50921, 50922, 50925, 50927, 50929, 50940 and 2. The pistol with SN 2 was an old gun which was already used for tests some years before and performed much better than the other ones. Nothing more is known about it.

Alexander

I can't wait to hear why it took so long. After the event at the Fort Lauderdale airport this week, it'll probably be the last to be imported. :(

Michael,
Congratulations on acquiring one of the very few authentic 9mm Swiss. Well worth the 6 year wait.
Ron