Help Please With Info on This Luger
 

Hi Everyone,

I'm a newbie to the site, and a newbie to Lugers. I've been lurking in the background awhile and reading lots of posts and I must say I am truly impressed with the wealth of information here, so I hope you knowledgeable people can help me with some info on this model.

I'm based in the UK, so that means this model is deactivated. Our Government doesn't like its citizens to carry real firearms, thats only for the criminals.

My collecting interest is in rim fires, especially Hopkins & Allen revolvers but I was at an auction recently and bid and won three Lugers. I've had a hankering for a Luger for a long while. My Father had one during WWII but had to dispose of that when he disembarked in the UK, so having one is like my personal tribute to my Father.

Anyway, here goes with the photo's, hope they come out OK.

Hope you can help.

Regards to all, Peter

Ah...Well...It definitely needs a sideplate... :D

Yep about the side plate, sorry, forgot to mention that, got one on order, also, I'm going to try and get a proper replacement screw for the left hand grip, the brass one looks awful.

Thanks, Peter

Hopefully, the brass will not have buggered up the thread...(It shouldn't)... :rolleyes:

Can I ask what has been done to deactivate it?
-Marc

Peter, You didn't show the chamber top. Is there a date stamped there?

Can I ask what has been done to deactivate it?

Re How was this model deactivated, I was trying to quote the original source in my reply and only posted the original source. Sorry about that, can't get the hang of posting quotes, anyway.

The model has been de-activated by a steel rod inserted at the breech end.

I've taken a couple of pics, hope they come out OK.

Thanks for your interest.

Re a date on the chamber top - no date stamp. All that shows on the top is 05 (last two numbers of the serial number) at the front of the chamber top, followed by the DWM logo and then a number 24 stamp (is the number 24 a date stamp?).

I've attached a pic of the chamber top, any info or comments would be most welcome.

Please excuse the previous miss-posting, trying to get to grips with the workings of the site, think I'm getting there.

Thanks,

Peter

It's a bit more than that...It looks like the chamber was drilled oversize (awful rough surface for a Luger chamber); then a slot milled lengthwise along the chamber length through the receiver and barrel/chamber; then a hole drilled transversely and the steel rod pounded in...

Can't tell if the rod was welded as well, but somebody did a quick & dirty grind of the end of the rod...

Yep...I'd say that was de-activated, all right... :p

That de-ac description is bang on the money.

On this side of the blue we have stringent laws that mean for a firearm to be classified as deactivated it must be rendered beyond possible re-conversion, i.e. it must be in a state that it cannot possibly be re-worked to bring it back into a condition where it could possibly fire a live round.

That normally means a gunsmith boring out a barrel or cylinder chambers. Then submitting the firearm to one of two proof houses in the UK for certification that the firearm is deactivated.

I've attached a pic of a deactivated Colt Police Positive below. On this model the cylinder chambers have been bored out and the barrel blocked.

I know it might look like sacrilege but the laws in this country are pretty prohibitive.

Peter

Their should be a law preventing such mutilation of a gorgeous firearm for stupid political reasons.
If you want to stop crime with guns give the death penalty to anyone committing a crime with a gun.

Thanks for posting the deactivation photo's, although I have to admit they made me a little sick to my stomach. I'll never look at my guns the same again.
Marc

Ouch.....Think I'll send an x-tra donation to the NRA......Cheers, Andrew

How sad, what a waste :(

I too am saddened by this de-activation process...but there are those in this country [coff *Feinstein, Brady* coff] who think that melting guns down into manhole covers is the only way to stop gun crime...At least the British have attempted to preserve the mechanical function of the weapon...

You can't admire the lines of a manhole cover, or cycle its action... :(

Yes, but the Brit form of banning is much more insidious. By allowing collectors to "keep' their guns, they accomplished what the libs here are trying to do. Thank God libs here want to melt down your guns into manhole covers. These extreme proposals are what have kept a US ban at bay. If the Libs here ever get more skilled at the subtle approach, we would see our gun rights erode much faster, not that they are not trying.....

Hi all,

I don't know if I should have started this thread, all I was asking for was some helpful advice on a Luger model.

This discussion's gone off at a tangent to comment on the virtues of Brit deactivated weapons.

On this side of the blue, gun ownership is something that is totally Verboten to our political masters - minimum 5 years imprisonment for illegal possession of a firearm!

In the UK we don't have the right to bear arms. Our politicians took that away from us, hence we can only "play" with deactivated firearms.

Sorry about that, but that's all we've got.

If anyone has some info on this Luger that would be really appreciated.

My thanks,

Peter

Sorry if I distracted everyone from the original intent of your post, I didn't intend to.
Marc

From what I can See i would think this was a parts luger made between the wars. Maybe for sale in Briton...any British proof marks?

You are quite correct. :thumbup:

I will make a note to refrain from responding to your requests. :D

The discussion of the mutilation of firearms, and Lugers in particular by the government of the UK is not forbidden in this forum, but that is not what this thread is about. The new member requested information on the only type Luger he is entitled by law to possess, so if you have information on his request, please post it in this thread, and if you wish to discuss UK deactivation of firearms, please start a new thread in the General Discussion forum.

Thanks! and a hearty welcome to the Lugerforum for Peter...

Thanks for the welcome.

Seems I've gotten off on the wrong foot with my posting and looks like I've offended postino, I'm very sorry about that, that was not my intent and the last thing I would want to do.

I'm more than happy to discuss deactivated firearms in the UK and how our laws operate. It just seemed to me that when the thread turned to that subject quite a few members found it saddening and I thought to myself, perhaps I shouldn't have started this.

In the UK, all that the ordinary Joe can hold is a deactivated firearm, or a firearm manufactured for an obsolete calibre. So thats pretty restricting.

Anyone interested in collecting WWII firearms has to make do with deactivated weapons.

if anyone has any questions on deactivated weapons or what can be legally held in the UK I'm only too happy to respond. As John Sabato kindly suggested, maybe worth starting a new thread if anyone is interested.

Getting back to my DWM Luger. Am I right in thinking this is a commercial model and as its undated it makes it pre-1910? Can anyone tell me the date of manufacture by the serial number, also, what is the significance of the 24 stamped below DWM's logo? Haven't been able to figure that out.

It doesn't have any proof marks or Brit marks.

My thanks in advance,

Peter

No, sorry, you are a bit off track?

Commericial lugers were made through the 1920's and part of the 1930's for export sale. Yours has a stock lug so it was made after 1913.

Being a parts gun makes it difficult to figure out. I can't figure out the markings on the left, even after blowing them up. A commercial marked luger would normally have a crown N on it, left side usually.

Also, the 24 by the DWM is the last two of a serial number, so if yours doesn't end in 24, then its a mismatched part.

Ed

Postino is pretty hard to offend...You haven't...I'll stick to answering your questions, in the future (if I can)... :D

I just didn't have anything to add about identifying your Luger...

But I found the pics of the de-activation very interesting...Thanks for posting them! :thumbup:

Postino,

Search the "Member Gallery" for the word "Deactivation" and you will find an album that contains photos of Tacfoley's deactivated Luger... They go into more detail on the UK deactivation process... :(

Never mind, :eek: here is the link: http://forum.lugerforum.com/gallery2...g2_itemId=6021

This is a mismatched gun with some problems: it appears to have been heavily buffed and reblued, I speculate that the chamber date and receiver SN have been "scrubbed," and the barrel appears to be a replacement. However, the basic gun seems to be a military DWM Luger produced in early 1914 to early 1916.
EVIDENCE:
Traces of military proofs on right side of receiver.
Lack of “extra” proofs and “L-P08” receiver cut rules out Erfurt production
Frame serial number 5905 without suffix and most visible parts #05 – early production for whatever year.
Stock lug on frame (introduced later 1913) rules out pre-1914 production
Unrelieved sear bar (relieved introduced later 1916) rules out post early 1916 production
This gun is a mess but it is a piece of history and if I am correct, it was carried by a soldier in the Great War.
KFS

I can't make out the left side marks and that is very interesting. You said you won 3 lugers was that mean more to come?

Thanks Karl for that info, that is really interesting.

I know this old piece has seen some hard times but it just speaks history to me and finding out that history is interesting.

On the left hand side the only readable marking is a Brit proof house stamp (Birmingham proof stamp - crossed swords).

On the left hand side there is an indentation, but not anything thats near a serial number, just looks like a ding that was too deep to rub out.

On the right hand side, there is, what's left of a S, almost like a dollar sign, towards the barrel, there's, what looks like a bell on its side.

I've taken some pics of the left and right side and although my camera skills aren't that good maybe you can pick out what they are.

On a closer look, the barrel does look like a replacement, the blue is a lot newer, but again, the stampings have been rubbed out before it was blued.

Are there any comments on the wooden bottom magazine, is this the correct period for this Luger?

I have got two more Lugers I bought at an auction, one, a 1936 S/42 and a 1939 42. I'm trying to get my head around the DWM before I ask any questions about the others.

I'm very grateful for the info thats been provided, I haven't got any info on Lugers that I can provide to repay the kindness thats been shown in terms of parting with time and knowledge to help me determine what I've bought so I'm reluctant to post loads of questions about the other two.

I don't want it to seem I'm taking advantage of forum members knowledge without being able to repay in kind.

Thanks to all,

Peter

Peter,

The magazine appears correct to me (but I am not an expert) and it appears to be in beautiful condition. The "S like a dollar sign" in your initial post looks to me like the remains of a Gothic S. If so, that is significant. It would be part of one of three receiver acceptance stamps (originally with a crown above). If I am correct, and I may not be, along with the "evidence" I cited above, this would make your Luger a 1915 or 1916 DWM. As I stated, the evidence would make this an early 1914 to early 1916 Luger. According to Still's Central Power Pistols (pages 439-440), pre-A block (no SN suffix) 1914 below SN 9360 had XQF letter stamps (no S); but pre-A block 1915 had SES stamps and pre-A block 1916 had HSS stamps. Based on the location of the mark directly under the receiver opening, it is probably the first letter of three - making this 1915 DWM 5905. Again I am not an expert and would welcome a real expert to tell me that I am on track or full of s***. KFS

If you need a sideplate I saw these repo ones on the site below for $25.00
http://www.thedealershowroom.com/cat...40/6870356.htm

I posted this on the wrong thread
If you need a side plate I saw these repos for $25.00 at the site below.
http://www.thedealershowroom.com/cat...40/6870356.htm

The takedown lever is either a Swiss 06/29 one, or a post war Mauser one.
Forum menber Tom Heller has had excellent reproduction sideplates available. Dropped one on my 1917 LP08 which had a trigger pull from hell and it cured it immediately. Blue matches the gun blue perfectl.

My thanks to all for the wealth of info.

I have ordered a replacement side plate, just waiting for that to arrive, but thanks for the info on Tom Heller.

Interesting info on the take down lever, I thought it was probably a repro and was going to try and source a period replacement, thanks for that.

On the magazine, I was hoping someone would comment, I thought it was probably about the right time frame, so my thanks for that and thanks for the info on the dollar sign stamping, that is really interesting.

Once again, my thanks for all the info.

Peter

Trying to help to put this topic back on its tracks.

It is a mismatching Luger, as said above. Numbering is in military style, there are remains of military acceptance proofs on the right side of the receiver and there is the notch for the Artillery rear sight over the receiver.

My bet is that this guns started its life as an Artillery Luger (LP.08) during WWI and was rebarreled with the more conventional 4 inches (100mm) barrel afer the war. Probably it was at this time that the toggle was changed in order to have the correct rear sights (fixed) for its new barrel. It was most likely aimed for civilian market after WWI.

Anyway, it would display nicely in a shadow box of your father's belonging and awards.

Thanks for sharing,

Douglas

PS - Just now I saw that Karl had provided you with much more info. Sorry for being redundant. I promisse to read the 2nd page next time! ;)

Hey, not redundant at all, thanks for more info.

The observation about an artillery history is very interesting, thanks for that, what you say makes a lot of sense.

As a newbie to Lugers I have been absolutely bowled over with the amount of knowledge that forum members have and the willingness to share and help new guys like me.

I've definately got the Luger bug and I hope, in time, as I gather more knowledge, I can pass on some informed info.

I must say, this thread has been an interesting learning curve for me.

My thanks,

Peter