Help needed dating luger
 

This is my first post here. I'm out of my element with lugers and hope this is the correct place for this question. I'm trying to ballpark a year of manufacture on this poor sorry looking gal for a friend. Story is it spent a long time under water and it looks like it. Very beat up and obviously will never fire, especially with no trigger assembly but it would be nice to get the era correct as it is a family keepsake. No visable marks of any kind including serial number I guess due to corrosion on the pistol except the DWM script on the toggle assembly so no letter to help date the number on the mag. No grip safety.

Serial number on mag is 6582. The mag looks like it spent a long time with the pistol as they both have equal parts of the c**p beaten out of them.

If I could get an approximate year and place of origin he would be happy.

Thanks for any help.
Mike

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...2007/002-1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...2007/005-1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...2007/009-1.jpg

Is the hole above the trigger guard drilled or corroded through?

Well, hard to say, if no date on the receiver then it is likely post 1921 but before 1930


Place of origin is DWM factory Germany, they weren't made anywhere else (a few exceptions, but slim that it is one of those)


Curious, found in water, a family mistake or found where?


Ed

Drilled. Looks like factory - trigger assembly connecting point?

Even with all the corrosion I'm sure there was never a date stamp on the receiver. Someone told me it might be a very early year before dates were stamped but I have no luger knowledge so don't know fact from fiction at this point. I'm getting the family history soon. Hard to tell fact from fantasy with family stories.

Is the aluminium base mag from later?

This is a reply from another forum. What do you think?

"Seems what you have there is a military P08 configuration, pre-1914 because it doesnt have the stock lug attachment. Date on chamber would be 1910 to 1913 (a rarity would be a 1914 date as few of these were produced without the stock lug during the transition period) An undated chamber, combined with left side receiver (bbl extension) proofs would indicate a 1908 type pistol which was the first model Luger adopted by the German Army.

Mag is a 1940-42 production, extruded body with either FXO markings (1941-42) or 122 markings for a 1940."

The information you received from the other forum is correct. I was going to mention the same lack of a stock lug as well as no chamber date. It is one of the earliest issued guns.

Is the toggle being held open by corrosion or is there a "hold open" device keeping it raised as in the photo? There is no clear indication from your right hand side photo that a hold open device was added, which did not come on these early factory guns. The photo is not sharp so the added hold open pin may de there, I just can't see it.

The drilled hole was done by someone other than the factory. There should be no hole in that area at all. Maybe an attempt to "add" a trigger by someone who did not understand how the mechanism works or for display purposes?

Here's where my ignorance shows. By stock lug do you mean a lug as a means of attaching a longer stock at the back?

Although somewhat stiff, the pistol action functions and the toggle will stay up until pulled back and released.

So I understand the pistol is an early one but is the aluminum base magazine later production?

A few more pics:

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...2007/006-1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...2007/003-1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...e_2007/004.jpg

Yes - the Aluminum based extruded blued steel magazine (by Haenel) is from a later era. It's from the late 1930s through 1942 period.

There is normally a hole in the frame for mounting the trigger. This one may have been drilled out as it appears slightly larger than normal.

Your take down lever has been snapped off.

The stock lug would be at the bottom of the rear frame strap near the magazine well.

Yes - the stock lug is used for attaching a carbine stock. See this site for pictures.

The trigger mounting hole does look larger than normal

Thanks all for the great info. I see some lugers with grip safetys and this one doesn't have one. Is that a further indication that this pistol is an early model? Were grip safetys instituted on a certain date or year?

Mike

Actually, a grip safety is generally an indication of an early Luger. The first production Lugers in 1900 had a grip safety and that feature continued through the Model 1906. The grip safety was abandoned with the first German army contract in 1908 never to return except in some commercial and foreign contract guns.

Thanks Ron,
You know I never was a luger guy even when we played war outside with two bring backs that my friend's dad got in WW2. My main interest is the early 1911 but I'm starting to like the luger enough to the point of maybe getting one. I keep feeling sorry for this poor old thing...

...Huh???... :eek:

I think it would make a most excellent desk trophy, dude!!! :thumbup:

Can you show us a picture of the front of the frame and the underside of the barrel ?

I would like to see the SN.

I am not fully convinced that this is an early P08.

Vern

I have some more pics and I’m puzzled that I can’t find any serial number in the places they are supposed to be even taking corrosion into account. There is a number “57” (shown) underside of slide and what looks like a number “1” (shown) at the rear underside of slide. A number “57” (not shown) also appears on the frame. I’m assuming the 57 is the last two digits of the non-existant to my eyes serial number. On other pistols I see this done on many parts but on this example only stamped in the places mentioned. Unless a serial number is buried on a part I can’t access there is none on the gun.

Is it possible that this luger was not serial numbered? It seems odd as those couple of places have the two digit numbers. Is it possible that there were mix and match or rebuild parts that weren’t serial numbered?

Regarding playing war with real handguns – I grew up in small town Newfoundland in the early ‘60’s with no thought of today’s paranoia about firearms.Our arsenal consisted of a mixture of very real looking play guns with a few real war trophys mixed in that we snuck out of our dad’s hideaway spots. Two Lugers, A P-38, a couple of Colt 1911’s and a strange I think Russian pistol that had a star on the grip or frame. No ammo involved and back then it’s just the way we played.

If you want close-ups of these pics use the trick of holding down the keyboard ctrl key and rotate the mouse wheel forward.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...07/005-2-1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...2007/007-1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...2007/001-1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...e_2007/012.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...2007/010-1.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...2007/006-2.jpg

You know Mike, I've shot Lugers that looked worse. A trigger, side plate and takedown lever, etc. So long as the bore is reasonable (open). It's not like you are risking hurting it.
dju

Same here. Shot a P08 that spent some 30 years in the Neckar river last year. It was overhauled at Mauser after being found, as a sort of 'fun project'. With new springs and a new barrel liner, it is still going strong after some 30 more years :)

Interesting. How do you put in a new barrel liner and have it stay 9mm?

I was at the Chantilly show this Summer and a couple of fellows showed up at the table with one about like this only with fresh red rust in most of the crevasses..there were portions that had NO rust at all and you could tell it was a mint pistol before it was rusted. 1915 DWM. A good friend offered to remove the rust with an acid bath so I took him up on it. When I saw it next it was blackned but all the rust was gone. I had to hammer it apart...once I got it all apart I wire brushed every part and inspected it. I had to change out the flat sear spring, the flat mag release spring and the trigger. A couple of links on the mainspring broke off but I didn't have another so I just put it back in. Didn't seem to affect it. Magazine has deep rust on it but it still works..an all matching pistol too!
It's completely in the white now but I shot 100 rounds thru it with no problems. for a $50 Luger it's a good shooter!

Jerry Burney

Loctite, according to the owner. They made a bet with the supplier, he won :)

The barrel is bored out to fit the liner. Looks like a good desk ornament. You can spend a lot of money on it and still not have much. To me more value the way it is. Just one collectors opinion. Bill

Don't automatically assume that it needs to be re-sleeved. Try it first and you may find that it shoots just fine. Visual inspection of the lands and grooves it usually sort of a waste of time in predicting group size. And besides, if it goes bang that's what counts.
dju

I value my hand a bit more than that. If you saw this pistol up close you would hopefully see it as more of a conversation piece. I'm really trying more to get answers to my original questions about the age etc. rather than thinking about actually shooting it.

OK. Good luck.
dju

Well, the serial number and suffix would be on the front of the frame, if rusted away; then the answer I gave you is about as close as you are going to get...

You didn't answer where it came from?

As it has a later WW2 era magazine, I wondered where it was found?


ed

Hi Ed,
You said in your earlier post:

"Well, hard to say, if no date on the receiver then it is likely post 1921 but before 1930".

I thought it couldn't be after 1914 because it doesn't have the stock lug attachment which I understood was added during 1914. Also I don't think it's possible for a deeply stamped series of numbers to have completely disappeared from the barrel AND the frame. The barrel maybe as it is quite corroded but the front of the frame isn't that bad and absolutely no ghost of an impression there.

The story I just got about this luger is not complete but it was given to my friend by someone who said it was found in a river in Germany without the trigger assembly. What year it was found I don't know yet but from the condition I imagine it was long after the end of WW2. I say WW2 because of the magazine which was in the gun when found. It's hard to nail down these stories as you know and they do tend to change a bit in the re-telling over the years. It has been suggested that German officers about to be captured would remove the trigger assembly and throw pistol and trigger in opposite directions to avoid having a working gun fall into enemy hands but who knows?

I've had a chance to do some reading of posts in the various forums here and most appear to indicate that even early lugers had the serial number stamped on the front of frame and barrel as well as other places.

My burning question is why doesn't this one? Any ideas? Also Is the number "1" and number "57" stamped underside of slide significant? (See earlier pics previous page)

That's where the end of the trigger pin goes, if it had a trigger.

The DWM toggle and no date places it about 1908-09, made at Deutches Waffen and Munitionsfabrik, if it's miliotary - possibly later if it's a Commercial Luger. After 1909, military receivers were dated.
The numbers on the underside of the receiver lug are an indicator of the pistol's last two serial number digits. The absence of numbers on the frame puzzle me. The barrel is too corroded to have any numbers left.
So, probably a Commercial 1908 or a 1st Model Military.
Bob

Thanks Bob, have you heard of any lugers that did not have a serial # on the frame under the barrel?

[QUOTE=whcoyote;183964]That's where the end of the trigger pin goes, if it had a trigger.

I'm aware of that. The following threads clarified that I was wondering if the hole had been enlarged by drilling or corrosion.

Mike:
I have never seen a Luger without a S/N on the nose of the frame. That's not to say that it never happened - just that I'm not aware of it. I collect only Imperial Military Lugers (1904-1918) so there may be some in other genres (?) that are not marked on the nose. I think this Luger was marked in the Commercial fashion: S/N on nose of frame and under barrel; last two digits of S/N under the takedown lever, under the lip of the side plate, on the left side of trigger, on rear of rear toggle link, sometimes on top edge of safety lever tab, bottom of receiver lug, underside of forward part of front toggle link (just behind the breech block). I have also seen Lugers that were commercially marked with the S/N on the safety bar and the sear bar although this is not a prescribed location.
Check all these parts and see if there are any remnants of the S/N anywhere.
Bob

alanint: Go back and read the last paragraph of your Post #7, above.

I have a Russian capture P38 which has had the serial # at the base of the barrel ground away, very skilfully, very smoothly, and very flat. A new number was stamped very lightly in that space. The same number/font is also stamped very lightly on the left side of the slide, and more heavily and with different font on the right side of the frame.

Is it possible that their Lugers were marked similarly??? And a faint # corroded away???

Don't even remember making that silly comment...thanks.

Thanks Bob. Please look at my post #16 showing the front of frame with no serial #. Even if worn a lot I'm sure it would be there at least faintly. Also there is a #1 underside of slide and I assume the last 2 dogits of a serial #--57 in a couple of places.

Yes Mike,I see "_7" on the bottom of the receiver lug - can't make out the first digit. So, that may be a clue as to the S/N of the piece. Still can't explain the blank frame nose. Maybe someone else can help with that, although I think everyone with good knowledge has said their piece - except for George and one or two others.
Bob

The ONLY Lugers I have personally ever seen that didn't have a serial number on the front of the frame were guns that had obviously had their number removed (Defaced). Often, the evidence of this is that when the gun is properly assembled, the upper receiver protrudes forward of the lower frame but what amounts to about the same depth (or deeper) than the depth of the numbers that were removed.

Possession of a gun with a defaced serial number might be considered to be a problem by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives... (BATFE)... Better check their website and search for "defaced"

No alteration on the pistol. Also I just realised I didn't have my location showing. I'm a Canuck so BATFE would translate to RCMP.

If it was recovered in Europe sometime shortly after the war, it is possible that the gun was stolen or captured from a German, then had it's serial number removed in order to hide it's identity. A number of defaced/unnumbered pistols have surfaced in Belgium the last couple of years.

If it was a stolen or captured gun, the fact that the side plate and trigger were missing may be explained by someone removing these in order to keep the gun safe against abuse (at home, for example). Since there were quite heavy punishments on the possession of fire arms after the war in most countries, it is not unlikely that someone got cold feet and eventually decided to ditch the gun.