early german luger, looking for info
 

I have a German Luger that has been passed down in my family since my great great grandfather. It is a 9mm, 6" barrel, reverse safety and also has the grip safety. 100 & 200 range site. You can put a stock on this gun(don't have one though). It is missing the front site piece. It is stamped(scrolled) DWM, the serial # is 3608. All numbers are matching with the exception of the clip(#'ed 3331). Underside of the barrel has a crown symbol and the letter "M"(i was told is a navy issue??), with ser. 3608 under that. 08 is stamped in 3 visible places on the gun. There are no other markings, #'s, or stamps on this gun. I took this to a gun appraiser(not a luger appraiser), he couldn't give me any info on the value of this gun. All he could tell me is he thinks the year is 1904 and the bluing is about 95% and it's in excellent condition. What I would like to know is an estimated value of this gun....the year and model....and any other info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much for taking the time to read this.

Yup, you got a Navy Luger. Tom Heller should have a front sight blade for you [lugerdoc on this site].

Excellent start to a collection! :)

gee...
 

some people have all the luck! I wouldn't be surprised if Angelina Jolie shows up later at your house in a nightie with a bottle of good wine!

WOW! Beautiful! I think a 1906 first issue. But wait for the real Navy experts to show up.

Whaaaat? When she showed up here, I had to supply the wine,,,

FN

Hi Randy, Welcome to the forum. You have a 1906 Navy 1st issue with the safety in the original, unaltered, configuration. This is a rare and very desirable variation, and yours appears to be in extraordinary condition. However there are two areas of concern. Firstly, your gun appears to be missing the Naval proofs and acceptance marks on the left barrel, receiver and breechblock (see photo). Secondly, I see no sign of barrel serial number halos. I hope that this is just the photos you provided. Perhaps you could post clear photos of the left side of the gun, and a close up of the barrel serial. Regards, Norm

NORME: Thanks alot for the reply. There are no other markings on this gun, other then whats stated and pictured. Picture 7 shows the markings on the barrel. If you click on the picture and then click on it again after it opens it will show you a full photo. Also helps if you zoom in the % on the page. Not sure if you knew that, just thought I would suggest it. The lack of markings is what has me stumped on what this gun is. I was told that some of the earlier guns didn't have a lot of the stamps. Could that be true?
Thanks again for all your help.

I would say it is either a refurbished and sold in Canada (no germany stamps that I could see) from the 1920's/1930's

Or a very nice reblue (a restore would have the markings reapplied if possible). See how faint the crown M on the bottom of the barrel looks.

And no, the chance of it leaving the factory without being accepted and proofed is as remote as Norme seeing Angelena (sp) show up. My goodness you live in colorado, and she lives in utah or something, she'd have to make an appointment with you?


Ed

is it possible the original barrel extension was damaged and replaced, and the original barrel reblued and installed on it?

I agree with the above that this pistol doesn't have the Navy acceptance marking, but without inspecting it, I would not rule out it being a 1920s Navy type commerical (see "Lugers at Random" page 182) using up leftover 1st issue M1906 parts. Years ago I had a long frame standard sight, non-grip safety type commerical with a crown/M marked (on bottom) barrel, that was made from old parts at DWM in the 20s. TH PS: I do have some NOS front sight blades available.

Norm.... Based on the thread going on over on Jan's Forum, I would think we would not expect to see halo on this early of a gun. Am I missing something ??

Hi Dave, If, as Tom has suggested, this gun is a post war Commercial Navy, I would expect to see halos. I also understand that most (but not all) Commercial Navies, were built on the later 1914 frame, had five digit serials, and were "Germany" marked. Regards, Norm

A 1920 Commercial is probably a reasonable guess. All bets are off on 1920 Commercials, particularly those non-standard (i.e. navys, LP08s, carbines) that were assembled from parts...they are all over the place. Wouldn't be marked Germany if it was for European sales. This is a neat gun, whatever it is.

Hi thanks for all the great replies but if it was a 1920 commercial why are all the parts stamped with 08 that coincide with the serial # even on the inside of the grips and no other numbers. This thing has me baffled. I have been looking everywhere for info. Again thanks so much for everyone's replies and great info.

Small parts and grips should be numbered with the last two digits, commercials included. What other numbers are you looking for?

Norm... I guess my thoughts were that if it was an original Ist Issue that perhaps just lost it's Navy acceptance stamps in the 1920 period then it wouldn't have had a halo since the get go...

Ron's comments about 1920 are well taken. Like Tom, I have what I've considered a 1920 6 inch Navy with navy rear sight and a C/M stamp on the bottom of the barrel. Serial number is 7757. No grip safety. Stamped MADE IN GERMANY.

Interesting period.....

Ron: Sorry, what I meant was if this was put together with spare pieces/parts would all the numbers still match? Including the small and interior parts? Also, I was under the impression that they removed the grip safety in 1908. As with the reverse safety lock earlier then that. Is my information wrong?
Thanks again for all the help.

SD, Prior to it's take over by Mauser in 1930, DWM was using up its left over unnumbered spare parts to built up all sorts of variations for commerical sale --- they needed the money. Mauser even continued to make some grip safety lugers for contract sales to the Swiss, Portugese (GNR), etc. TH

In the second photo, isn't the hole at the top of the stock lug indicative of a Mauser frame?

Eric
Unusual, in that it has a long frame and what appears to be a Mauser stock lug!

Metal has been removed from the barrel serial number area, and a number restamped. The absence of any proof marks on the gun suggests that it was not created in Germany.

--Dwight

If this is true, (and there does appear to be irregularity in the barrel surface), I would also say that the exact same dies were used to stamp the frame serial number.

A puzzle indeed......

Metal has been removed from the barrel serial number area, and a number restamped. The absence of any proof marks on the gun suggests that it was not created in Germany.

--Dwight

Dwight:
Good spot. I can see that now. I guess that's why we pay you the big money...
dju

Isn't the theory of those stock lug dimples related to the process Mauser used to blue the guns? Weren't they thought to have something to do with the way the guns were supported while being run through cleaning and bluing solutions?

Some kind of factory rework could help account for the exact font on the barrel restamp... Were there rebuild programs at Mauser?

Marc

Dwight....... GOOD eyes...... I need to start drinking whatever you do...:cheers:

Thanks everyone for all the info but I'm still lost. So should I assume a good insurance value would be around 800.00 or would it be more or less. Thanks again for all your time and interest. Please keep posting with your suggestions.

I think that it would be wrong to go to the extent of declaring such a low value on this gun based on the well meaning comments posted to date. To my knowledge, Mauser produced relatively few grip safety guns and none that I know of with GESICHERT in the lower position. This frame has the earmarks of a first issue unaltered navy production.

I would be more inclined to attribute the tell-tale stock lug “dimples” to an erroneous cutter runout rather than considering the frame as being of Mauser origin. Perhaps it was this and/or other errors that precluded this particular gun from military acceptance (and the corresponding “proof” marks), and placed it in the parts bin to be later resurrected during the 1920s for commercial sales. The absence of proof marks does suggest that it was created somewhere other than Germany, but that is a suggestion not concrete proof.

The most troublesome detail is what really appears to be a scrubbed and restamped barrel serial number. The front of the frame also looks like it may have been treated in a similar manner. Hard to say when it was done, 1920 or last year.

I can’t assign a value but it seems to me to be more than $800.

Hi Randy, I agree with Ron, I don't believe the frame was manufactured by Mauser. We may never determine the when, where or who of this pistol, it is likely to remain an enigma. As to insurance value, Navy "shooters" start at around $1,500.00, and I would figure your gun somewhat more, say $2,000.00 to $2,500.00. I hope this helps. Regards, Norm

Any roached out Navy shooter should bring twice that amount. It is an interesting gun that has the experts puzzled.
Insure it for whatever feels right.
dju

Thanks guys for all the info and I hope you guys can help me find out what I have it is definitely a interesting thing to try and research and to find out the pros are having as much fun as me. Their is so much info out there and to still be confused as to what this gun is unbelievable. I just thought that it might not be worth as much as I first thought. I just have not seen anything like it. Thanks Again for everything

Randy, what part of PA are you in? I am in the Wilkes Barre/ Scranton area. John

Im located around the Dubois area of PA.

Too bad you were not a little closer, I would like to look it over. If you are ever going to be eastward a bit, or decide to sell it. email me at bench1000@aol.com. My vote is 20 era commercial sales gun. Even if it were recently made, it is a really nice navy shooter. Nice pistol you have, John

Duboise! That's where my brother lives! Small world.

Small world indeed I do know some wood's from Dubois that I went to school with.

serial # 61 luger
 

Hello thanks for all the replies from everyone. I was researching for info on my gun and came across a luger with the serial #61 and from what I can see in the pics it dont have alot of the markings and looks very close to what my gun looks like. Please let me know what you think. Thanks