Newbie needs help
 

Hello, Im new to the forum. I mainly collect Third Reich but just picked up a 1914 DWM that I would love to get some information on. It has a sear safety but not a magazine safety and no police markings that I can tell. The holster is a Franz Cobau 1935 dated with sunburst K and matching serial to the gun on it. It also came with 2- matching numbered wood bottom magazines and matching serial numbered take down tool. Were there any police lugers without police markings on them. The gun seems to have original finish and is near mint which doesn't seem right for a 1914 DWM in a 1935 holster. Any help would be appreciated.

A couple more pictures. The bottom of the barrel is marked Bo 29 over the serial number. Sorry the pictures are not better.

I've got my doubts about this one. For one the straw coloring does not look to be 90 years old, etc. I'm guessing that it is restored however lots of good photos are necessary before I go too far out on that limb.
Do the suffixes on the magazines match up to the one on the frame in front of the trigger guard?
It does look VERY nice, and welcome to the forum.
dju

Thank you. The pictures are not good so I'll try and post better ones. There is no letter suffix. Im assuming according to net search it was in the first 10,000 serial number group. The gun had old cosmoline inside and out. The finish looks to be original to me but Im no expert. All edges and stampings are crisp.

I hope these are better. Its hard to pick up the strawing color. Thanks

Hi Dail, Welcome to the forum. Your latest photos seem to show that the barrel serial numbers have halos. If this is so then your gun is in remarkable original condition. Congratulations on your nice find! Regards, Norm

I like the second set of pictures much better. Straw looks good to me and I'm seeing a nice halo on the barrel.

Hi,

The "Bo29" refers to Boehler Steel. It's known to be found on some 1914 Lugers.

Immediately below the serial number on the frame in front of the trigger, there are two marks. The left one is a scratch. Is the other mark a scratch also, or is this a lower case letter? If it's a letter it's part of the serial number. 6161x ....

In 1916, the sear bar was "relieved" to allow the gun to be unloaded with the safety on. Your pistol has the relief cut visible on your second posted photo. When the decision to relieve the sear was made, there were, of course, many Lugers in the field. The order included a directive to return existing guns to have the sear modified. The tooling marks on your sear look like your gun could have been one of those so modified.

Your gun is in remarkable and beautiful condition. It looks like there is still some cosmoline or grease coating parts. As you give it a good cleaning, be thankful for it's help preserving your Luger.

I've gotten some of those inexpensive cotton "string" gloves that are now available. They are ideal for handling my guns since they keep the finger oils off the finish. They are so cheap that when they get dirty, I just throw them away.

You didn't show the front of the holster. If it has a post in the flap that the strap pushes down on to hold things, it's a police holster. If it's a buckle, it is a military design. I can't make out the interior of the sunburst, I believe that it is a police proof.

So, very possible that this was a WW-I gun that was reworked (to add the sear safety) and assigned to the police during the Wiemar era. It's so well preserved that I'd guess it was held by someone in the hierarchy rather than a field officer.

Marc

The 2 marks are small scratches. There is no suffix letter. Those are halos in pictures and on the gun. Like I said there was cosmoline all over the out side and the inside. My question is were there any police guns that did not have police markings on them, There are no markings on outside of gun other than a typical 1914 DWM Luger. It has a sear safety but no cut on the frame. Is that normal? The only mark that I have a question about is inside the frame on the flat in front of the trigger K&B. Was the information I found on the net correct that the first 10,000 guns had no suffix letter. I want to thank everyone on the forum for your help on this gun. The sunburst has a K in the middle. Thanks Norm,Dave and Marc.

D.,

There were many Lugers issued to the Gemeindepolizei (small town uniformed police) in about 1935 and most of these do not have police property markings. The holster is consistent with this. Welcome to the forum.

very, very nice rig!
 

-Matching numbers Luger,
-2 #-matching mags,
-#-matching holster,
-#-matching tool.
Awesome!:thumbup:

While I'm slowly warming to the straw being orig. I'd really like to see close-ups of the 2 mag. #'s and the front frame # as I'm suspecting re-issue mags. I'm doubting that the orig. 1914 mags. stayed with the gun through WW1 and police re-issue.
But I have to admit that so far it is looking very nice.
And a question for other collectors: what conditions are necessary to preserve straw coloring? Is the typical deterioration a result of time alone, hand wear, rust, oils, etc?
dju

Looks good to me.

I have a 1917, one a wood original magazine, the other an aluminum magazine, both have matching serial number.

I have seen several 2 matching mag WW1 guns with an army + and then a 1 and 2 added later.


Ed

Ed:
On your 1917 did they add the suffix to the alloy mag?
dju

no, you don't usually see suffixes on police gun mags

Here are pictures of the mags and front serial # dju. Took these in the bright sunlight.:) There are a couple small scratches by serial #.They are nickle and look like originals I found on line searching this gun. The # 2 mag's base is darker but the numbers stamp look the same. Does anyone know what the K&B stamp in the frame means? Thanks for all the info. and compliments. Like I said I mainly collect Third Reich guns etc. but could not pass on this one. Thanks to dju,Andy,Don and Ed. Regards Dail

A picture would help identify the "K" and "B" inside the frame, but they are most likely inspector stamps, applied by individual inspectors as the Luger went through it's manufacturing steps.

Later in WW-II Mauser did away with this system, and began using an intertwined "WR" inspection stamp.

Marc

Here it is Marc. Thanks Dail

I don't think that those are inspector marks, but must defer to those with more experience...

Marc

I guess my thoughts are that I'm not going to get quite as spendy for a gun with magazines later issued to the gun as I would for a gun with it's original magazines, with the correct suffix, where applicable. To me the later Police re-issue mags. are along the line of matching VOPO mags.
But then maybe I'm just being a stick-in-the-mud. It does happen.
dju

Are you saying these are not original mags from 1914 dju? There should be no suffix on the mags because the gun has no suffix. The information I found on a site was that the 1914 DWM started at like 01 -10,000 with no suffix and then 10,000 number blocks with a, b,c, etc. suffixes.I collect Nazi Lugers and I didn't know they used wood bottom nickel mags in 1935. From what Im gathering from the responses here this was a military proofed 1914 DWM that the police procured and added a sear safety in about 1935 as the holster is dated 1935 and serial numbered to the gun. Dail

Dail.... It looks to me that probably neither mag was with the gun from the get go. In your first picture the body of the one on the right looks to be more Imperial period due to the kind of brushed or flat finish. The one on the left is more typical of the body color I've seen on Police mags.

In the third picture which I believe is the #1 mag (+) I think I am seeing a very faint suffix above the +. Looking like a "g" or "q" to me.

I believe the numbering on both mags was done by the Police and IMO they just shaved the original number off the #1 mag and renumbered it to match.

Don Maus knows a lot more about all of this but this is just my guess.

Really neat rig and you are getting very good with the pictures........

I looked at it with a loop Dave and its a imperfection in the wood. But as I said I am not good on Imperial Lugers so I don't know the history on their mags. Would they have used wood bottom mags in 1935 or aluminum? I had a K date and it was a aluminum base as is my 1936 S/42. Thanks Dail

Dail... I think that the Police used whatever they had. Again, Don really knows this stuff. I'll be interested in seeing what he has to say about the mags. IMO it really doesn't matter if they used the original mag or a different one. It became a Police gun and the mags were changed to conform to their regulations............

Just my 2 cents.......

Thanks Dave. I hope Don replies to the question. I like to learn as much as I can when I get something new I don't know about. Dail:)

APPLES AND ORANGES......

Not sure how they can be called the same; as most collectors divide pre-ww2 and later post ww2 into different categories.

Police would use what they had, but by 1935, I highly doubt they would have used wood bases. In 1926 (if I remember right) there was a directive to switch from wood to aluminum, so 9 yrs later, I would imagine that aluminum would be the preemptive choice and what was available.

With police, you have to know your stuff. there were different kinds of police, different kinds of markings, stamps, etc.

As they got into the nazi era things became "more" organized, more centralized.


Ed

Thanks for that information Ed. Dail

Thanks to everyone for your help and knowledge that you shared on my Luger. This is a great forum. I didn't know about the thumbs up symbol for thanks. Dail

Dave, you give me too much credit. But I have observed that many of the 29 DWMs in the s, t and u blocks that were issued to the police have original matching wood base mags. So they were in use by the police later than 1926.

DON, since I was the only one that used that date; please look above and see what I wrote. :confused:

I said that AFTER 1926 they were to be phased out. 1929-1930 is closer to 1926 than 1935.

I showed an example of a 1917, on purpose, that it had two types of magazines. My purpose in doing so was that it showed that BOTH types could make it through with wood and aluminum.


so, in other words, yes, as Don said, wood bases would be found.

Ed, I'm puzzled by your comments since I thought I was agreeing with you. :confused: I added only that wood-base mags were being issued with newly manufactured Lugers in 1929.

Don, its not you, I am just having a bad writing day. My apoligies my friend.


Ed