Luger Accuracy?
 

Hitler should be fortunate that he had a Walther PP to shoot himself with and a cyanide vial to bite down on to commit suicide because if he had tried to shoot himself with a Luger, he would have most certainly missed and found himself in the hands of the Russians.

I think Luger accuracy is a myth. I have shot Lugers from a brand new Stoeger 9 mm to more recently a 1914 DWM and a 1941 Mauser Banner. The results have been the same with all of them. Scatter shots.

The most accurate Luger I have shot is an air soft Luger from the comfort of my living room. I must agree with collectors that Lugers are to be seen and not heard. Leave the shooting to my old friends — the trusty 1911 .45 ACP.

Even so, you've got to love the classy Luger with its unique toggle mechanism. They are fun to shoot, but embarrassingly inaccurate.

I've found the opposite to be the case. I've shot lots of handguns including several Lugers, and still do on a regular basis.

I don't recall ever shooting a Luger that wasn't accurate. Some have a stiff, spongy trigger pull, but once I've figured them out and adjusted to them, I never had a problem. I have a .30 shooter that is one of the most accurate pistols I have ever shot.

JRS... Over the years I've probably fired a dozen or so different lugers and they have all shot well. Sometimes there were loading problems due to random ammo I was shooting or mags that had some problems but I have found that accuracy was never really an issue.

I do as well with a luger as I do a .45 Kimber. Maybe a bit better.

Ron? How do you adjust a spongy trigger? Got a couple of those.

FN

To JRS,

I agree with Ron Smith And Tau-Delt.I have done alot of shooting with different model

pre 1945 Lugers.I shoot them mostly at 25 yards and have found them to be very accurate.

I have done accuracy tests with Artillery Lugers at 100 yards and was able to shoot 9 inch

groups at that distance.

Spartacus38@charter.net

Bob Young

Most any Luger can be extremely accurate if you exercise good trigger control and are a good shot to begin with. It takes practice and patience to get the best out of your Luger. IMHO its very unfair to condemn all Lugers as being inaccurate pieces of junk.

Charlie

Well, I do not consider myself a world class competitive pistol shooter, but I am impressed by the accuracy of the Luger. Here is an FBI Qualification target that I've posted before. You can see I have a few "fliers" but you can also see two pretty tight groups of holes since the course I was firing was done from two different distances. Additionally, these shots were fired under circumstances designed to mimic the stressful environment of a self-defence situation. And the Luger was simply an ordinary run-of-the-mill .30 with a six inch barrel. This was the best looking target on the firing line when it was all over and everyone else was using much more "modern" pistols too. I do not think it is my own marksmanship ability as much as it is the inherent accuracy potential of an ordinary Luger. Anyway, that's my "two cents" worth.

a coincidence?..on JRS bio page, it says "JRS has not made any friends yet"
 

at this rate, bad-mouthing lugers on THE luger forum is not likely to get him any friends anytime soon.......

For one thing, a Stoeger stainless Luger is not a P08. It's a poorly made attempt at a copy.

Every German Luger I have ever shot was consistent-accurate in the sense of groups, bur some needed sights adjustment.

Scatter shots from the 1914 and 1941 seems to indicate a lack of trigger control, or inconsistent aiming due to the rear sight notch being difficult to line up consistently.

The standard rear sight notch on a Luger is not conducive to getting a good sight picture, and ON MY SHOOTER Lugers, I find it helpful to carefully file out the notch to a U shape that approximates the regular rear sight blade on most modern guns.

In its trials at the beginning of the 1900's, the U.S. Army found the test Lugers submitted by DWM to be very accurate, and only rejected it for its functioning, cleaning, and precision requirements.

For all we know, it's just the reports of a bunker resident that recount Hitler's shooting himself, but he might have had such extreme shaking that he missed and injured himself with the PP, and had to have someone else finish the job, to put him out of the world's misery.

I can't comment as to the accuracy of Lugers as I don't think I've ever shot one. I've cleaned my 1915 and plan on taking it to our gun club meeting this next Tuesday evening. I picked up some Winchester white box yesterday. I'll report on my experience later.
Bill

My Lugers, and particularly my Artillery Luger, shoot more accurately than I do...

And I'm not that bad a shot (came in right in the middle of the field at the last Creedmore Cup national pistol competition).

Marc

My old lady, a 1937 S/42, shoots great!
Much better in comparison to my 100-years-anniversary P-38 or a standard 1911. Target distance of 33 feet
(=approx.10 meters)

Ha! I was thinking the same thing.

Well done, Andy!!

FN

Aw,shucks JRS

You just came over from the 1911 Forum to rile up all us luger owners!:roflmao:

All the lugers I have ever fired have been very accurate pistols. This includes everything from a near relic artillery that I thought would never shoot again,to the much maligned Mitchell SS luger.:D

And a Happy 4th of July to all the wonderful folk on the luger forum:cheers:

Bob

Perhaps one reason: the 9mm uses a very fast twist rate. Lugers use 1:8. .357 around 1:15, 38 special around 1: 18. 45ACP 1:16. Even the LP.08 is 1:8. I recall one of the parts places was selling long luger barrels, but everyone found that they couldn't hit squat with them. The twist rate was 1:16.

FN

Perhaps another reason: The Luger is the only pistol design I am aware of in which a significant amount of mass is forced upwards as a part of the semi-automatic ignition process. (the front and rear toggles, and the three pins associated with these parts) The physics involved in this upward movement must result in a tendency to tame the recoil, and return the barrel to point of aim much quicker. If there is another design that does this, I am not aware of it. Every other design involves mass (parts) moving directly backward. The Luger is a very clever design.

By the way, unless you have accomplished time travel, ( 28 years into the future, and then brought back a souvenir ) , you could not possibly own a 100-year anniversary P38.

( correction - clarification below ) :-)

"100-year anniversary P38."

Alx,

Walther produced P.38s commemorating the 100th year anniversary of the Walther company, not the P.38. I believe this is what he was referring to.

Dear JRS:

If you are shooting modern NATO spec. ammo through a Luger, you probably are getting a scattered pattern, as most modern commercial ammo is way to hot for the original Luger design (approximately 17% to 20% too hot).

George Wilson, of 1911 fame, totally disagrees with you regarding Luger accuracy. Do a Google search for his fine e-book on this very topic. He concludes that an average 9mm Luger, shooting the correct spec. ammo, can outshoot even highly accurized 1911s.

Hitler had quite a history with the Luger from WWI. See if you can get your hands on a copy of "The Foe We Face" by Pierre J. Huss, Doubleday Doran & Co. 1942. In this book, Huss recounts an Alpine walk with Hitler, during which Hitler hit two snowballs, in mid-flight, with his personal carry Luger.

Finally, you can make a 1911 design pistol shoot as accurately as a Luger, but at quite an expense of time and money. If you reload, and are really interested in learning how to shoot a Luger, I'll be happy to share some in spec. loading information with you.

Sieger

ok, my "bad".

Here's a link to the snow balls shot in the air with a Luger incident which Sieger reported above.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/...b-huss-01.html

Of course 100 years Walther, not 100 years P-38.
This special edition Walther P-38 was sold to celebrate 100 years Walther-Werke.
A very nice, high quality, all steel edition with a nice blueing and nice wooden grips.

But I look forward to buy in 28 years a "100 years P.38" special edition.
I bet it will be a nice gun!
I hope the Lord has mercy with me and my hobby and allows me to live that long.

there is WAY too much logic being offered here to the uneducated comment by JRS.
 

..

I like that.

I have personally shot many Lugers and found that all of them could out shoot me. ( a bit of history, I came in second place out of about 70+ shooters at the Fort Gordon Commanding General's pistol match in 1975... and coached the Ft Gordon Marksmanship Unit Combat Pistol Team for almost that whole year, so I was no slouch at hitting what I aim at... That was with an unprepared standard issue M1911A1 that was the luck of the draw out of the arms room).

Even a couple Lugers with very bad bores shot with near 10-ring accuracy. I was astounded. Similar results have been reported here by many qualified shooters. There must be something inherent in the fixed barrel design that puts them where you aim in close clusters.

Reliability might be in question for these old girls because of ammunition or magazine fit, but never their accuracy.

The accuracy of a semi-auto pistol is determined by the slide, or in the case of the Luger, the cannon, returning to battery in the exact same place each time. The precise fit of the cannon within the frame of a Luger makes it accurate.

If a 1911 .45 has a sloppy barrel bushing, toggle link or loose slide. It will not be accurate. The critical parts are the bushing and toggle link.


Fred,

I didn't mean any mechanical adjustment to the trigger. I meant that I adjusted to the trigger. In other words I learned how to pull and stage it so that I knew when it would trip.

Ron

In regards to accuracy, I believe that the problem may be with the shooter, not the pistol!

A few years back a fellow member at the range was complaining that his Smith & Wesson model 29 with 6” barrel was junk as he could not keep the rounds on paper at 25 yards! He had tested just about every type of ammo and all with the same results. He was going to send it back to Smith & Wesson for repair. It is not an easy task to suggest to someone that it is probably not the gun, but more likely the shooter causing the problem.

One of the members at the pistol range mentioned that he owned a Ransom rest and was pretty sure he had the fitted inserts for an N frame with square butt. He would be more than happy to bring the rest to the club the following Saturday and test his Smith & Wesson model 29.

Needless to say the model 29 was just fine as all six rounds with within a ¾” as I recall using factory 240 gr bullets. This settled the question of the revolvers accuracy once and for all!

I would say that this probably also true with a Luger as well.

Regards,

George

I believe it's the shooters fault for lousy accuracy with a Luger. Either bad shooting principles, terrible ammo or just a plain old bad shooter.

Do you think for one second the Germans would use an inaccurate pistol for 40+ years?
Every book and article I have ever read states flat out, the Luger is very accurate.

I believe your trolling in the wrong place. Maybe you should go back to knitting.

Ron,

OK. Thanks. Surprisingly one of the best triggers I have is an Erfurt LP.08. One of the worst is a Krieghoff. And yes, I've shot both. But I think the HK trigger spring is the cause. Looks stretched out.

FN

----

Boy that must have been an really outta spec M1911 in that test... or perhaps the user wasn't prepared for the recoil of the .45 ACP compared to the other 9mm's and the 7.65mm :eek:

Well, pistol shot I ain't plus my vision is the pits. If I can see the sights, can't see the target. See the target, can't see the sights.
That said, here's a target I shot a while back. 25 yards, Swiss, 06 W+F Bern, 7.65 Parabellum. I would hate to be on the receiving end.

I guess it must be the sight. I too have trouble with my gun's sights at short range. I know it's supposed to be zeroed in for 50 meters but our range is only 15 meters so I have to fiddle a bit with the front sight.
I found out that I have to keep the top of the front sight slightly above the top end of the rear sight, otherwise it shoots too low which makes aiming more cumbersome than with modern pistols, but once I found the correct position, I was able to shoot very precisely.
I have a 1971 Mauser with 6" barrel in case that matters.

The 1970s Mauser Parabellum was sighted in and test shot at 25 meters, rather than 50 (as the pre-1948 ones were).

When it comes to accuracy, the luger has no competition. One problem is that most modern trained shooters don't know how to handle it. The inherent inaccuracy and consequent short range use, combined with a pose that is designed to handle these modern low-grade guns doesn't help people to understand the cleverness of the luger design.

'Tea Pot stance' (and the right attire of course) !

I just don't like the rear sight v-notch. .'Love the Luger, just not the rear sight.

My "shooters" have the rear sight filed out to a "U".

Alx,

That is one trick you can pull with a Luger that you can't with any other gun. Just bend your arm back towards the body until the sight picture becomes clear. A luger is just as accurate when shot with a bent arm. There is a very nice picture of Georg Luger shooting his pistol at a Swiss contest. The gun is almost touching his nose :)

alterfritz,

I have the same model luger and have the same problem. Shoots about 3" low at 25 yrds. I'm thinking of filing a freckle off the front sight.

FN

Just raise the front sight a tad above the rear sight. It increases the visibility as well.

Vlim
Thanks for the info on the correct shooting stance for the luger.:thumbup:

I have always shot lugers with one hand,in the old style NRA target shooting stance.It just seems more comfortable to me.

My dad was taught to shoot the 1911 that way in WW2 by the Army. He was in the signal corp. Of course,as soon as his unit arrived in New Britain,he was issued a M1 carbine! Go figure.:eek:

He still has his issued 1911A1. Last time I visited him,I got to shoot it again. It looks and functions like new!

Today I was out testing a bunch of luger mags a buddy resurrected for me.They all functioned fine and my shooter luger was much more accurate them I am!

Bob