Whats it worth? My 1st Luger (rig) purchase
 

Well I'm a brand new member and just couldn't help but ask the pro's a ballpark value of my Luger. (I got 1 collectors opinion $4500) I know its almost impossible to value a gun without a "hands on" veiwing but please feel free to reply with your opinons. THANKS!

I'm seeing a fairly common Mauser gun in extraordinary condition. I'll go out on a limb far enough to say that with both magazines matching it is well above average. $4500 seems pretty high, I'd be closer to $3000, but I don't see enough like that to give an educated guess. Lets see what the more advanced collectors weigh in at.
dju

Thanks for the input DJU. I've taken is down and all numbers match. In my opinion the gun is 98%+ The holster is stamped bla/1941 P.08 on the back. Maybe I should've bought a "shooter" instead, I WANT TO SHOOT IT...:jumper:

Need clear pictures please?

Like new guns, make us nervous, so crystal clear pictures are a must.

I would like to see pictures of the toggles, the toggles ramps, and the top of the center link and chamber marking, also rear of frame.

So far so good, I do see some inconsistency in the side plate finish and the rest of the gun.

We don't miss much, so be prepared for some questions.

Thanks for posting

Vern

I'm trying my best on the pictures, maybe I need a different camera?? Here are some more. You are correct there is a little "holster wear" on the side plate. I'm 100% sure that this is the original finish. Hope these pics help

Thanks for the input DJU. I've taken is down and all numbers match. In my opinion the gun is 98%+ The holster is stamped bla/1941 P.08 on the back. Maybe I should've bought a "shooter" instead, I WANT TO SHOOT IT...

Well go buy another Luger to shoot...The hit you would take if you broke a part (unlikely) would pay for a shooter. There. Now you have an excuse to go buy another...
dju

Finally got some better pics and re-sized them...

Anymore needed?

Hi:

I have a byf 41 rig similar to yours, except that it has the black grips (Black Widow).

Frankly, since I have a simmilar one, I'd appraise yours at at least three million dollars! Ha!

Anyway, it looks like there is something wrong with your hold-open device. Does the pistol "hold open" properly on an empty magazine?

Sieger

I think I will go with what David said around $3000

There is a gun similar to yours on the Simpson LTD web site for $3200 and it is actually in slightly better condition, but without the matching mags. so Ok add another $500 for $3500. Simpson LTD is usually high retail.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...82c45330f48742

I know very little about holsters, so looking at the gun alone.
Holsters can be very tricky will let others talk on that subject.

Sieger:

Good eyes! :)


Vern

Please another better lighted photo in sharp focus of the serial numbers on the front of the frame. The existing photo appears that these numbers are not struck consistently as deep as the numbers on the rest of the gun. A fine weapon in excellent shape, and if you are going to shoot it (JUST ONCE OCCASION so you can say that you did- This is COLLECTOR GRADE).

I would not use anything that might be too strong for it... I recommend Winchester white bulk box of 100 usually available at Walmart would be a good choice... make sure you have adequately lubricated the gun when you shoot it, and don't get oil on the grips. Don't store the gun in the holster... fill the holster with bubble wrap to maintain it's shape. place something (like a layer of bubble wrap) inside the holster belt loops to make sure they don't get flattened out, and get a piece of wood the size of a magazine to keep the mag pocket in shape. Don't keep the holster buckled... opening and closing a leather belt/buckle that is 69 years old is asking for devaluation of the holster. No shoe polish, just a soft buffing brush to clean the holster. Best of luck with you, and I agree that you should buy yourself a shooter.

You can improve your pictures by taking them in diffuse light. Don't use a flash. If you have a white sheet you can drape it over the area you're photographing at outdoors and end up with pretty even diffuse light.

You need to be able to control the focus on your camera for closeups. Your camera may have a "closeup" mode (the icon looks like a flower on many cameras).

Use a tripod to hold the camera. It lets you concentrate on focus and exposure instead of the framing. A steady camera will help your camera focus better...

Nice Luger! I really like Mausers of that period...

Marc

Took a few more pics hope they show the serial number a little better. Forgot to mention that on the back of the holster is bla/41 and P.08. (any importance?) thanks again for taking the time to look at my gun.

The problem with pictures, are in fact that they are pictures.

We are analyzing your gun based on pictures so there is always a chance we are wrong in our assumptions, a trick of light, the angle of the shot, a little under exposure, it does not take much to make a perfectly good gun suspect here on the other end of the internet.

We are bombarded with non original guns.

I think I see softening of the proofs on the right side of the gun, and on the SN below the barrel on the frame. This would indicate a refinished gun, maybe a very very long time ago.

Remember near perfect guns make us nervous

Just telling you what I see

Please notice how the outer numbers are worn but the center is not on the 656, this would not happen naturally during the stamping process, it could happen if a professional restorer, took care not to remove original proofs during the restoration process.


Vern

If I can figure out a better way to post pics I'll try but I don't think photography is my cup of tea. The numbers you are seeing are 655 not 656 with that being said I think the pictures are misleading you. How could you tell the numbers are worn but can't make out the digits themselves? I was affraid this was going to happen and probably shouldn't even had posted this but I was just curious what others thoughts were on my gun. I have a pretty good idea what re-finished guns look like and can almost 99.9% gaurantee you this is the original finish not to mention the man I bought it from has had it since the 40's, ( you probably won't believe that either) Is it too unbelievible that my gun is as nice as it is or are there just that many people who try and pass off a non-original gun for the real deal? Maybe my holster is a repo and the 2 matching mags are fake as well, who knows maybe this thing isnt even a real gun perhaps a squirt gun?:confused:

Jason, you came to a forum that specilizes in Lugers, and that has seen many, many VERY well restored guns, so YES, we are going to have some doubt on a very nice gun. Not sure why you feel you are being crucified or tormented? (my words since you didn't say that, but you made several comments about you knew your gun would be suspect). Well hell yeah, there are a couple of guys in the Pennsylvania area that re-do guns and match them up with two matching magazines (which is rare in itself), so yes, we are very careful.

Take a bright light, shine it on the finish, it should look slightly rusty colored, deep into the bluing. This is CORRECT, it is rust, its called patina and that is what a 60+ yr old gun should look like.

As an aside, I never saw what kind of luger it was until I looked close at the pictures. for us non-mauser guys, its good to say 1941 byf mauser, blah, blah ;)


Ed

Hi All:

While we are at it fellows, take a good look at the grips.

Either the million dollar chip has started or these are replacements.

Also, look at the thickness of the border of the grips, front and back.

Well, what do you think?

Sieger

Jason,

I'm sure that forum members welcome your postings and photos.

I understand the frustration and anxiety in the last post.

None of the members here are trying to criticize your Luger for the purpose of knocking the value down or cheating you. They are just expressing their opinions based on the information they have.

There is a huge amount of "boosting" done with Lugers. It can take many forms. The reason it's done is purely greed. A few hours work, and many thousands of dollars can come home.

Most Luger collectors have also been burned at one time or another. The opinions you're getting here are based upon experience, and sometimes very difficult experience.

This is a community. I've found it to be welcoming and to have good integrity.

- - - -

I'm a new collector too. I think you have a beautiful Luger. I frankly wish I could have one as nice. Someday I probably will.

The holster marked "bla" carries the mark of holster maker E. G. Leuner in Bautzen, Sachsen.
It looks to be in good condition. There are expert holster restorers on this site that can give more informed opinions.

I can't tell because of lack of detail in the photographs, but I think you have Haneal manufactured extruded magazines. They look right from what I can discern.

You know the provenance of the rig. If this was a "bring back" from the WW-II European war theater, it's possible that the seller has an authorization from the US forces called a "bring back paper". If you can contact the seller, ask him if he might be able to locate this.

Having a complete original rig with bring back papers increases it's value. It's not a matter of whether anyone believes your provenance or not... The papers (if they can be found) are part of the history of your rig.

One of our members is collecting "bring back stories" for inclusion in an upcoming book he's writing. If you could get details of how this pistol was acquired I know it would be appreciated.

- - - -

Photography is, as you note, a hobby / profession all to itself. There are some inexpensive and relatively easy ways to improve pictures, which is why I shared some hints in my last post. I wasn't criticizing your skills or equipment, only trying to help.

Better pictures mean that people here can be more helpful. Of course, there's nothing like seeing something in person.

Marc

I appreciate the advice Marc, I'll try to set up my camera and background a little differently next time. I don't believe the seller had any bring back papers for this but he did tell me the story of how he got the gun back in 46 or 47 he couldnt exactly remember what year. 1 of the reasons I'm so sure its original is, he didnt want to sell it, it took quite a bit of persuasion on my part in order to get him to let go. He had several guns, another being a byf 42 that was MINT but I knew with this 1 having 2 matching mags it was the more desirable of the 2. The seller was in his late 80's and the $ didnt mean a whole lot to him I highly doubt he was trying to "turn" a buck. And it wouldnt make much sense for the original owner to have had it redone, heck when the previous owner bought it, the thing was only 5-6 years old.

This is the " New Collectors Forum" It's meant to be a learning experience for everyone, I thought I was doing that. If I offended you it was not meant that way.

I talked a lot about the need for quality pictures and we very very often tell members to insist on 3 day at home inspections.
There is a very real reason behind this.

Attached is a picture of a gun I recently bought, the top left picture is the one posted for purchase ( enlarged slightly), that is a very good picture, even when compared to another gun only a few serial numbers apart ( upper right) it still looks pretty darn good.

True the fonts are off ever so slightly but that is common to this model, so not a major issue. Look at the different shades and hue between the three different cameras, this is a factor of the camera and has nothing to do with the user, but it makes analyzing a gun using pictures much more difficult that you may realize.

Bottom left is a very high resolution picture, here you start to see an issue, obvious sanding marks and the picture bottom right you can see an over stamp of the 9.

What I can not show you is that with a hand held loop, I can actually see a "6" under the "9"

It doesn't matter if it was done a year ago or 65 years ago, that side plate is not original to the gun.

I still bought the gun because it is near perfect in every other way and was fairly priced. I am always looking for a good deal.

Anyway, no offense intended.

Everyone has an opinion, I am not always right.

Good luck in your future collecting

Vern

Jason,

I'm relatively new here too, but I think you have a great looking rig. Perhaps a little high on the price but not outrageously so. We've all paid too much at one time or another. Enjoy your luger!

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to shoot it after a thorough cleaning, inspection, oiling. One of my shooters is a mismatched 41 byf. Barrel is just so-so, but it shoots great. I shoot all of mine at least once. Even a 1937 Krieghoff, although the seller almost had a heart attack.

A couple of areas people miss: Get a small push pin remove and clean under the extractor. These can be tight and difficult to get out and in. See the vids here:

http://www.wonderhowto.com/search/luger/

Another area is the firing pin. Remove and swab out the breech core that holds the FP. Amazing what you'll find in there. Also the spring cavity in the FP. Use a brush on the barrel bore from the back.

The byf's were the last of the German military lugers and very well made. Have fun.

FN

Well, I personally think it would be foolish to shoot it. Folks can say it is a remote possibility to break a numbered part, but I did it on a breachblock on a shooter, a perfectly nice, tight, good breachblock.

This is a 2 matching magazine, army byf, not common and worth the $3000-$4000

I personally can't or don't want to risk that much money; PLUS you are risking losing 1 more very collectable piece, when there are thousands of lugers out there for $600-$800 that will shoot just fine...

He breaks the breechblock and he has just shot about $2000 off the value.

You want a shooter, then buy a shooter, don't jeopardize a 2mm rig...


Ed

Thanks for the input Ed I've made up my mind not to shoot it maybe I can find a reasonably priced shooter sometime but for now I'll just admire this 1. I'm trying to get some better pics so everybody can see it's original we'll see how that goes, Thanks again!

Jason,
I looks to me you have a very nice original 1941 byf. The two matching magazines and its history makes it very special indeed. It is something to enjoy as there are not a lot of rigs like yours out there. Congratulations on a great pickup !

Tom

Thanks Tom!!! I got some better picture thanks to Marc's advise.:thumbsup: Now maybe the haters will stop hatin! JK I think these will be the last pics I take i don't think I'll get any better than these here. I also took a grip off to show guys who don't know (Sieger) what a real original BYF grip looks like! Let me know what you guys think...Thanks again everybody

Attached is a picture of your guns right trigger guard ( on left) and another byf41 in the center for comparison

Your gun shows obvious signs of rounding of edges from the over use of a buffing wheel. It covers most of the upper trigger guard and extends into the grip area and also has widened the take down hole.

I don't really pay much attention to grips, but we did identify after market grips being produced about a year ago that look just like yours, they came cut short and poorly cut for the safety lever.

I hope you did not pay too much for your gun.

Best of luck and thanks for posting

Vern

I do not see what you are talking about. Wouldnt the tooling marks around the safety have been removed in the process of a reblue not to mention the white? (and on the right side just opposite of the safety) I think I'm done trying to prove to you that this gun is original :banghead:because no matter what there will always be skeptics and frankly I'm beginnig to regret making this thread

Regarding tooling marks, the ones in out of the way places get less buffing action than on the flat surfaces. If you ever spend time over a buffing wheel you will understand.
Regarding the originality of the gun, I think that you have a fine Luger there. This forum is populated by advanced collecters who out of necessity seek out problems. And good thing that they do because there are some real pros out there on both side of the guns.
Anyway, welcome and enjoy.
dju

I think the back of the grip looks good with the D mark and the 655 stamp. The left grip appears to be missing a sliver of wood under the safety, which Jason, is not uncommon on luger grips.

Grips
 

Vern:

Thanks for the close-up of the grip. This is not an original grip!!!

Sieger

How do you figure?

Hi Jason, Welcome to "The Luger Forum"! I know you must think that your welcome so far has been far from friendly, but you should understand that sharing knowledge and experience, and critiquing guns is what this forum is all about. That said, I think your gun, including grips, is all original, and the "softening" observed is merely the result of soft photos. Best regards, Norm

I too am interested to learn what identifies the grip as non-original.
dju

Grips
 

Hi:

The grips of a Luger are just as precise of an execution as the rest of the pistol. An original set, or a set newly produced by Nil-Grips of Germany, will completely wrap around the base of the safety, tightly; whereas, a cheap reproduction will fit sloppily here, sometimes even ignoring a proper fit, altogether (see photo above). For a proper set, see the Luger in the opening page of this board

Where I can usually spot a fake is around the base of the safety lever. On an original set, the fit here is almost air tight. In fact, its so tight that it often will chip there, yeilding the "million dollar chip" often seen on a well used Luger.

I hope this short explanation was helpful to all.

Sieger

So instead of asking "hey is your grip chipped right underneath the safety?" You automatically assume its a repo? I'm taking that as a compliment so thank you! Its obvious my gun is sooooo nice certain people conclude that it has to have been redone... I thought in the previous photos it was evident that there was a chipped grip. This was my fault and here are a couple clearer photos. I hope these pictures are helpful to all.

Hi Jason, Welcome to "The Luger Forum"! I know you must think that your welcome so far has been far from friendly, but you should understand that sharing knowledge and experience, and critiquing guns is what this forum is all about. Norm has said it well..

Jason,Take what information you get here and use it to help you understand your new pistol. Don't get your back up and become emotional. Many of the guys here who are taking the time and trouble to analize your pistol are very experienced and knowledgable.They have seen hundreds if not thousands. Not just yours.
None of us are infallible but hear what they have to say and try your best to provide the needed information. After all..you came to ask for opinions.
I know its almost impossible to value a gun without a "hands on" veiwing but please feel free to reply with your opinons. THANKS

Jerry Burney

SEIGER:

In your post above, you are able to describe exactly how to spot a fake pair of Luger grips based on fit! I take it that grips that do not fit a Luger per your description are fakes! Does this hold true even though they may have a matching serial number stamped on the reverse side of each grip?

I also see where you were able describe what an air tight fit is and that that this so called air tight fit will often chip the grip, yielding the “million dollar chip” often seen on well used Lugers! Did you think this stuff up or did someone tell you this?

I have seen Lugers that the wood grip fit is not 100% as wood shrinks, yet they are original. I have also seen next to mint Lugers with a chip out of the corner by the safety that appear to be hardly fired.

I was always under the believe that the chip was due to the fact that the wood towards the end of the grip were thin, yet the problem is that the wood grip sticks to the safety lever/frame and is broken when left grip is lifted as it is stuck and not at all due to your air tight fit theory.

George

PS: Jason, you have a very nice 1941 byf Mauser Luger and it looks 100% original finish to me. I don’t own a byf Luger with two matching magazines. Your Luger is very desirable!

Mauser George
 

Dear Mauser George:

Let me answer you respectfully.

To each his own!

Believe it or not, professional opinions often differ.

If you feel the Luger in question is 100% correct, feel free to buy one just like it in the future, but don't expect everyone with almost 40 years of experience to agree with you.

From the photos presented here, I have great doubts regarding the correctness of the grips shown. This, however, is my opinion, which, quite obviously, you do not share.

By the way, there are some other elements of the grips that make me doubt their correctness, but I'll not share these here, for fear of causing hard feelings, or stepping on someone else's feet.

Happy trails to you

Sieger

George, THANK YOU for your reply. I have a feeling that just because I am a new to the world of Lugers some people must think that I'm totally new to guns in general. I have been around enough to tell the difference between an original finish on a gun to a re-finished gun. I may not know everything there is to know about Lugers (my reason for joining the forum) but I can't believe some of the responses I've gotten. It's nice to know thar there are legitiment members out there and that my joining wasn't a total waste of time.