WW1 Luger found on Somme battlefields on Saturday
 

Hi all,
This is my first post, so please excuse my lack of Luger knowledge as I am not a firearms collector but have some interest as this area is directly allied to my main interest of military history. I found this Luger on the WW1 battlefield of the Somme, and it remains in France, and I am trying to find out more information about it, including:

1. How is the best way to clean it up with a view to finding markings etc?
2. Can it be deactivated and by whom (I will not attempt it AT ALL)?
3. Is it possible to have a bullet in the chamber as well as a full mag?
4. All the grime on the piece noted, is it possible to tell what the manufacturer is from these photos?

basically, I am fascinated by this luger pistol, so any information you can offer is welcome.
Best
Macadoon

Hi,

Yes it is possible to have a round in the chamber and a full magazine, although that wasn't standard practice. With a full magazine inserted, you'll find a total of 8 round, one of which can be located in the chamber, giving you 7 in the magazine.

Although it's safe to say that this pistols firing capabilities are a thing of the past, it is good to observe some caution. The rounds themselves have brass cases and survive in the ground pretty well. The bullet jackets are usually copper washed steel, so expect those to be severely corroded.

I would suggest removing the loose dirt first, then soaking it in a bath of solvents for some time, removing dirt as it works free of the gun. A brass wire brush and some gentle brushing can work miracles.

Advice given via email
 

Someone has sent me this information:

'When in normal condition, if there is a round in the chamber with the toggle forward, the extractor sticks up above the level of the bolt to expose the word "Geladen", meaning loaded.'

Is this correct, and can anyone tell if the above luger is loaded according to this info and the above photos?

Any tips on cleaning are more than welcome by the way!

Macadoon

Yes, that is correct. But after a few years underground there is a good chance that the extractor has rotted away.

Treat a gun as loaded until you can prove it is unloaded.

Side profile
 

Hi... I have added a better side profile shot in the hope that it might yield info on whether the gun is loaded or not.
As on safety ... I am cautious beyond belief. I am making heaps of queries even before considering cleaning, and will not mess around with amunition. That is best left to qualified people.
Macadoon

Hi, the extractor, which doubles as a loaded chamber indicater is located at the top of the toggle, right after the chamber. You could start cleaning that part first, in order to determine whether the extractor is still there and in what condition it is.

If the extractor is missing (or so badly deteriorated that it will break apart), it will allow you to see part of the cartridge rim if it is in the chamber.

If the barrel is free of obstructions (or cleaned out as much as it can be), you can insert a rod into the barrel and chamber and use that to measure the total distance from the muzzle to the toggle. If there is no round in the chamber, it should be evident by the distance measured.

Note that on this example the extractor was broken in two pieces. I also checked whether a loaded round was in the chamber by using the rod approach. In this particular case there were only the remains of a fired steel case in the chamber. The gun is long gone, I still have the case :)

Thor, can you fix it?:eek:

Andrew,

This is a very interesting topic. Please continue to let us know how you progress, with continued excellent pictures--it will be a very good learning experience for all.

--Dwight

The rod approach
 

If the gun was loaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the tip of the bullet?
Converseley, if the gun was unloaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the back of the unloaded chamber?
Thanks
Macadoon

Cutaways would be useful
 

Hi, can anyone provide this thread with certain photographs of a ww1 luger, probably 1915-16 vintage. I found this one on a 1916 battlefield.
In particular, it would be useful to see the left and right sides of the handle, with the wooden hand plates removed?
I would then know exactly what it is I can see, grime etc on my example noted.
I think that is the magazine that can be seen in the handle in the top photo, and that the slide path can be seen (terminology is a bit off).
I've searched the net, but most of the photos it has appear to be of different models and then only from one side, or with the hand grips still on.
Any help greatly appreciated.
For those experts out there... what do these photos tell you about this luger? Any info is useful as you'll be writing for a complete novice who has caught the bug.
Macadoon

Hi,

All military P08's are basically the same. Details only differ when it comes to finish (not an issue here) and markings. All small parts, springs and the general layout of the gun are identical. It is virtually impossible to make any decent statements about origin, etc... without a couple of cleaning sessions.

You are correct that the metal tube visible through the grip openings is the magazine. It is still inserted into the pistol. The area behind the magazine houses the main spring (coil spring type).

I have found that soaking in automatic transmission fluid works wonders. It probably will not remove everything, but it will help. Please be careful, as Vlim mentioned, consider it as a loaded pistol.

Newluger

Rod check
 

You could put in a pencil til the breech block = approx. 10,2cm.
If it's loaded just 7,4cm.
10,2 cm
- 3,00cm
= 7,2cm

(a regular nowaday FMJ 9mm luger cartridge is 30 mm long, WW1 ammo was slightly shorter)

"I have found that soaking in automatic transmission fluid works wonders. It probably will not remove everything, but it will help. "
FYI a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone is suppose to be one of the best penetrants going.
dju

.....Thor, can you fix it?......

Now that is funny. :thumbsup:

Vlim, what did you do with the luger you showed above??
 

you kept the shell casing? why not the luger? it must have had a terrific story to tell........tom

Long story, local laws :)

Interested in how it was found. I bet millions of people have visited the site, and most won't find guns on ground surface waiting picking up. Found in a trench? in river? under ground?

I would suggest leave it as is without removing the dirt and rust. Since it's battlefield pick up, this is the best fitting.

I would use the 50/50 ATF and acetone to soak and use with a stiff plastic bristle brush to clean it as much as possible. Soak a day at a time, then use the brush in the solution, and repeat until the gun is as clean as it will get.

Once the dirt has been removed, you could try removing some quantity of rust using the electrolosis method, but check it frequently because the gun is mostly rust now.

Neither of these methods should pose any danger to you... even if there is a cartridge in the chamber.

I doubt you will successfully dismantle this gun without destroying what is left... so once it has all the dirt off of it, I would mount it on a plaque with an inscription of where it was found with your name and date.

Please do elaborate on how the gun was found after all this time... metal-detector?

Welcome to the Lugerforum and thanks for sharing your historical find.

You are right, not worth getting a fine of several $K or doing time for this find.

Am I correct that .19cm is the case, so you have to add the bullet, which give and take is .30cm. overall.

Alf

Very interesting topic! Please keep us informed about your progress.

Good luck,
Douglas

There were two producers of P.08 pistols at that time: DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitionfabriken) and Erfurt (Königlich Preussische Gewehrfabrik Erfurt)
Here are some examples:

DWM 1915: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...6a71fdc1bd4cde

DWM 1916: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...6a71fdc1bd4cde

ERFURT 1916: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...6a71fdc1bd4cde

As you can notice (and according to Vlim's observation), they all look the same concerning its major features: 100mm barrel, fixed sights, caliber 9mm Luger.

Douglas.

I found the luger in a paddock that had been recently ploughed, partially under a clod of earth. It had been raining heavily, so metal objects were relatively easy to spot. Only part of the handle was visible. In fact, truth be told, I thought it was a commonly found piece of shrapnel, and I walked past it. Something ... I don't know what ... made me think twice and revisit the spot for a closer look. Hey presto!
I want to emphasise the point that I did not, and do not condone, digging for such things. Nor do I metal detect, which is illegal on the battlefields of France.
Macadoon

For me the key thing is to see whether the ejector is sitting proud or not and whether there is a bullet in the chamber. Secondly, I want to know how many, if any, bullets are in the chamber. If there are any, I plan to have them removed.
I originally suspected the luger was fully loaded, but as I learn more about this type of gun from this forum, the more I think this may not be the case.
Of course, it is early days as yet, and I very much regard the luger as fully loaded until proven otherwise. That in mind, I have left it for safe keeping with an appropriately qualified person rather than break any laws or take any undue risks. Safety, caution, legality are my rules.
Actually, there appears to be quite a bit of metal, as opposed to rust, still left in the frame. The photo doesn't show it, but a pin test revealed the uminstakable shine of metal under some dirt.
Macadoon

There will be only one bullet in the chamber, as the chamber only will hold a single round. There may be more in the magazine, which is inside the frame. I would not worry too much of the safety of rounds found in the magazine. More dangerous, perhaps, would be to try to remove them than to let them be where they currently are.

One of my grandma's story was that a neighbor found a bottle-like object full of rust and mud in a pond (grenade), and the peasant did not recognize this thing and throwed it into kitchen stove... it indeed exploded and damaged the house. I forgot he's killed or not in the story. That's in 1940s.

What would posses anybody to throw an unknown object into a kitchen stove??

Another method of removing the dirt not previously discussed would be high pressure water such as a car wash or pressure washer used for cleaning the exterior of houses or car engines... It should not cause any damage whatsoever, removing only dirt. High pressure water directed into the barrel would also eat through any accumulation of dirt and expose whether or not there is a cartridge in the chamber. Let us know how you proceed and which method works for you.

That behavior was unexplainable. I had the same question. There were a few possibilities and let's put this guy being totally insane aside.... he might try to 'bake' this wet object dry? or he thought this might be an eatable? Hard to guess....

..perhaps to hide it? Some stoves back then was on all the time. Just a though..

Another silly thing to do with a couple of grenades, is to use them as weight for a grandfather clock. But that's a story that doesn't end with a boom, just a really bad idea from one of my relatives.

Perhaps this Luger is a job for Kroil and compressed air. There are many roads to Rome :)

True on the average person's unfamiliarity with ordnance.

I frequented a hotel in France for many years, which used an old artillery shell to prop open the front outer door. I never really gave it a second thought as into the 1970's the presence of WW2 objects was not that uncommon in Europe.
One year I visited and it was gone. When I inquired at the front desk, they told me someone realized the shell was a live HE and had it removed!!

I think I would have it x-rayed, before doing anything to it. You would then know exactly what you’re dealing with.

Properly done you might also discover who produced it.

Does the gun have a slot for attaching a shoulder stock?

Just a thought

Vern

Yes of course, you are totally right! What was I thinking at the moment:eek:
Just the case is .19mm, sorry.:bowdown:

Looking at post number 5 in this thread, would anyone hazard a guess on whether the extractor of this pistol is sitting proud, or not, indicating that it is loaded, or not? I'm not sure how high this piece of metal sits with the word 'geladen' on it when a pistol is loaded.
Macadoon

Not very high. It would be difficult to say with all the debris covering the bolt. One thing you may check, however, when unloaded, the extractor sits flush, or at the same level as the bolt. If you detects ANY rise in this area, then there is likely something in the chamber