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Norinco 9mm
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My local gunshop didn't get any Win 231 in yet, so I asked for a box of brass-cased 124gr FMJ cartridges...Only one left was an old box of Norinco...(He had aluminum cased stuff; and hollow points; and frangible bulleted brass-cased stuff; and other stuff guaranteed to break apart if it hits a blade of grass)...
The headstamp reads " 9mm 90 ^ " (that's supposed to be a triangle)... So...20 year old Chinese 9mm ammo...and no velocity/energy specs... :eek: This should be interesting... :evilgrin: I won't shoot it in Luger/Walther...I'll try a round or two in the Star...If it's too hot, I'll blow it off in the S&W 659... :thumbup: BTW: The original price tag read $9.99... |
That's excellent shooting ammo in everything I have...except...I haven't tried any in my Luger. That stuff was imported a good while ago, and that was a steep price if original at the time.
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Hi:
The Chinese ammo is red hot, +P+, and should not be fired in a Luger! Sieger |
I have fired hundreds of those rounds, perhaps a 1000 or more, and it is definitely not "red hot" or +P+. I will try to remember to chrono some in one of my next outings.
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Chinese 9MM
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Jonny: The original Parabellum formula was a 124 grain fmj at 1,076 fps. I have examined original owner's manuals through the 1940s and have found no higher specs. listed. The myth of some special hotter ammo designed to shoot in the MP-38 and MP-40 seems to be just that, a myth. Norinco ammo is comparable to our current military load, which is loaded at least 20% hotter than the pistol was designed to fire. In commercial specs. Norinco would be +P at least. It's your Luger, so feel free to fire in it what you will. Sieger |
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Although as a warning, some of it smells like dog poop when you fire it. |
I don't have pets so I cannot comment on this. But I tried a few hundred rounds of "Type 51 Pistol Steel Cartridge" 7,62x25 in a Norinco Tokarev some years ago, it smelled like baking sweet potato in oven.
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I shot tons of this back in the day though my Browning, Llama, and Glock with no issues.
But never any though a Luger. The ammo was brass cased with a brass jacketed bullet. (Or some other gold-colored metal) |
"The Chinese ammo is red hot, +P+"
"Norinco would be +P at least" Sieger, make up your mind. I don't think either is actually true, but as I said, I will try to chrono some soon. |
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What does "at least" mean? They must have a website somewhere. I'm telling you that it is NATO Spec. ammo. I suggest you run at least 1,000 rounds through your most prized Luger and see if it is still functioning after the fact. Sieger |
You tell me, that was your quote.
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Red Hot means something different to everyone. I enjoy Tabasco and find it pleasantly mild. To others it is Red Hot.
Does anyone know the specs of this Norinco ammo as that will tell all? Stieger, off the top of my head I recall reading that the German 9mm Parabellum ammo being 124 gr and upwards of 1400 FPS! Current 9mm Luger Winchester USA ammo 124 GR RN is only 1140fps! Since I reload, I seldom purchase ammo! Regards, George |
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Please provide written evidence of the 1,400 fps claim for 124 gr German Army ammo. Believe me, none such evidence exists. Winchester ammo is propably at the 1,140 fps you claim. This ammo is right at the edge of functionality in some early Lugers, and does jam in others as well. Current NATO Spec. 9mm is right at 1,260 fps, with a slightly lighter bullet. This is at or near the current Norinco ammo level (blue and red box). It is loaded approximately 20% hotter than the original German military ammo. Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo. They usually will jam on the stuff. Sieger |
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The phrase "at least" means...I'm trying to help the readers of this to keep their Lugers and their hands together. Sieger |
Jonny---Well, I'm not going to say the Norinco ammo is good or bad. I personally DO NOT EVER use ammo from a Communist Country. You cannot trust their products (toys, appliances, etc.) and I darn well wouldn't trust their ammo. If the burnt powder smells funny, it's probably because they make/use different or added components in the powder. So how can this ammo be NATO Spec? My wife (Taiwan Chinese) and I don't trust anything from China.
I will say if you shoot it in your Luger and things go bad, please don't cry here. It's your Luger, do what you want. Remember, Safety First! |
"That's excellent shooting ammo in everything I have...except...I haven't tried any in my Luger. That stuff was imported a good while ago, and that was a steep price if original at the time."
Hmmm...this was my first post on the subject. Where does it say I'm planning on shooting any particular brand of ammo in my Luger? While we're at it, the usual Luger/ammo myth is that they only work with hot ammo, not that "weak American crap". Again, while we're at it, has anyone ever seen, first-hand, a Luger explode while firing NATO-spec or other "hot" ammo? I very much doubt it. "The phrase "at least" means...I'm trying to help the readers of this to keep their Lugers and their hands together." - Sieger "if you shoot it in your Luger and things go bad, please don't cry here" - Conny I think you both have some serious ammo issues. I'll post the chrono results when I get to it. |
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If you donate 10 rounds to me, I can measure it's speed and post the result here. No estimation work for that's not needed. The speed can be easily measured.
Inconsistency could be a problem. Randomly picking up 10 rounds from the box, the result should be typical, at least for this box. |
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Actually, a donation of a box of the new Norinco (Red or Blue box) would have more current meaning. If I were in Florida, where my pistols are, I'd be happy to donate a box, as I have no further use for it. Sieger |
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Yes we do have an example! Just a few months ago, on this very forum, we had a report (photos included) of a Luger cracking both sides of its slide while shooting the Chinese stuff. Please do a search and you will find it. Sieger |
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:rtfm: PLAY NICE GENTLEMAN !!!! You guys are all trying to help others; so no harm no foul, but lets be nice. :p |
I searched for "Chinese" and "Chinese ammunition" and didn't see anything relevant. I did run across a good-many posts about others happily and safely using Norinco ammo, however. Please post a link.
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On a local gun show, I saw a guy pushing a baby stroller with two rifles on it for sale. One was a Chinese made SKS. I was looking at an ammo table and he happened standing next to me. Another young man was interested in the SKS, obviously a newbie. The seller was not good on talking and he introduced almost nothing. The ammo table owner was more business oriented sales guy, it's not his business, but he somehow was excited, and said many good words on Norinco product in general, and on this SKS in particular.
Looks like the buyer was not very happy on the asking price, he was shy and did not bargain, just put down the gun back on the stroller and about to walk away. I standed nearby and ask the seller "How much do you want on this SKS?" It's so noisy in the hall, the seller did not hear what I asked. But the previous viewer heard that and he turned around quickly "I will take it" :) |
Jonnyc:
Please search the word "fork" and look at the fifth post where a 1917's fork broke apart in three pieces after shooting the Chinese stuff. Sieger |
OK, I'll try to be polite here, but that was truly a fascinating discussion.
1. The ammo in question there was some unknown Chinese 115 grain, the ammo in this thread is Norinco 124 grain, so there really is no relevance. 2. The final outcome of the discussion on how the Artillery blew up was that the "gunsmith" had used improper tools and heat treating, not an ammo issue at all. 3. The only poster who had anything to say about the "red hot +P++" ammo was...hmmm...Sieger. Now you have described this ammo as "+P at least, +P+, and +P++". I'm not even sure what +P++ is, but I don't think there's a SAAMI rating for that. I will refrain from discussing this here anymore until I have chrono'd my 124 grain Norinco, the exact same stuff pictured above. I would suggest doing the same to avoid digging the hole any deeper. |
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Sieger |
Sieger:
You asked me to provide evidence of 1400 fps for a 124 gr ammo. Yet you then state to believe you, none such evidence exist! If you happen to own any reading material regarding Lugers, may I suggest that you do some research in this regard. You just may find what I said to be true as it is discussed in detail and is in black & white. When I mentioned the specs on the Winchester USA Ammo in my posting, there is no propably(SP?) as you stated in your response. My information is from Winchester printed material as well was their internet site! I would like to respectfully ask you where you ever came up with the information to make the following two statements? 1) Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo. 2) They usually will jam on the stuff. How so? Regards, George |
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Sieger:
This thread regarding 9mm Parabellum seems to be going in the wrong direction, as it appears you are more interested in arguing, and you and only you know all the facts. It is for that reason that I am not going any further as I respect Ed Tinker as he has made his feeling known already regarding this thread and the direction it is heading. What I said is correct and factual as it is in black and white as I indicated previously. Good luck and the best in your Luger collecting. Regards, George Upstate New York |
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Sieger |
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Sieger |
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Where's this "global warming" the alarmists are warning everyone about??? Our local weather station said that last year was the coldest in 50 years...and the year before was second coldest... I think 2010 is going to be the new winner... :( |
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You know, the fellow in bed in your avatar must have shot some of that mythical 1,400 fps 124 grain German Army ammo through his Luger. Just look at what it has done to his hand, eyes and face. Ha!! By the way, the byline in German says "Will you be next?" Here, in NYC, we are suppose to have a 0 degree Fahrenheit night. It's not that cold now, so I doubt it will get down that low. Global Warming Theory, Ha! Hope all is well there!! Sieger |
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People of Tuvalu said "All 6 billion people on Earth should applogize to us!" Why? global warming raises ocean level and the country submerges in water more frequently. Today is Tuvalu, tommorrow will be New York. |
Seiger:
Based on your recent posting, it seems that you are more interested in arguing, antagonizing and creating a conflict than anything else. Nice try though Bob. Perhaps I would feel same if I resided at the bottom of the wonderful state of New York. Based on that fact and the gun control instituted by your neighbors, do you do even own any Lugers? George |
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Not wanting to throw oil on the fire here, but I can confirm that just about all sources I've come across mention the same velocities for the P08 / 9x19 para combo: about 320m/s.
I have some extensive ammunition test lists from the proof house in Ulm. They tested several brands of 9x19 para in the 1970s in order to come up with a suitable reference round for Mauser's post war production. When Mauser tested, they found the average v of modern ammo to be a tad higher (around 340 - 350m/s). I've attached some test results from Mauser themselves, dating from around 1975, hope that helps: Hersteller = Producer Geschossgewichte = bullet weight in grams. Geschosstype = bullet type (vollmantel = FMJ, Hohlspitzgeschoss = hollow point, panzerbrechend = armour piercing) V measured with a 6" barrel, 5 meters away from the muzzle. An additional report from the Mauser engineers: b. Winchester, lot number 7658 DF 1. The average gas pressure of these rounds is some 2177 bar and shows deviations of +124 / - 112 bar. This ammunition was used without problems and gave good results, undoubtedly because of the accurate production. c. Norma, lot number 08915. The average gas pressure of these rounds is some 2515 bar and shows deviations of +128 / -411 bar. The ammunition functions some 25% above user gas pressure and shoots very high as a result (highest sight needed) d. Geco, lot number march 1971. The average gas pressure of this round is some 1815 bar and shows deviations of +136 / -185. With this ammunition constant good results were had. Interesting is that both Geco and Winchester produced a v of some 350 m/s on average and that, with much higher chamber pressures, Norma averaged at a lower v of some 344 m/s. |
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Just for completeness sake, here is an interesting box of Geco 9x19 para from the 1980s. It was custom loaded for former NWM manager Henk Visser's personal use.
The V on the overlabel is given as 280 m/s, which is quite mild for P08 standards, as the commercial Geco is already a pretty mild round. And some scans from a 1953 DDR manual on pistol and rifle rounds with v for the WW2 ammunition they were still using those days. |
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Actually, I'm quite "Green" and have been since the mid 70's. I feel that our environment is a precious comodity that should be preserved and protected In my High School Earth Science class, in 1974, we were taught that the earth was entering into a new ice age, and that we, or more likely our children, would suffer from starvation due to low crop yeild. Adequate evidence was offered through a study of the ice layers at the North Pole. The Germans have a much more interesting question for Al Gore to answer. If carbon emissions are causing our ice caps to melt, then why are the ice caps on Mars also melting at the same approximate rate (adjusted for its distance from the sun, etc.)? This study was done by the world famous Max Plank Institute in Berlin. My personal, non-scientific, view is that the sun varies in its energy output over time. We seem to be in a period of higher energy output now. This would seem logical. Sieger |
Way too cold today for anything more scientific, but here are the results of my limited testing:
PRC 124 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (20 rounds): Hi 1184 fps Low 1128 fps Avg 1161 fps Rem. 115 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (10 rounds): Hi 1122 fps Low1079 fps Avg 1097 fps WWB 115 grain in a 1940 Luger (8 rounds): Hi 1158 fps Low 1085 fps Avg 1127 fps Like I said, not scientific, but indicative none-the-less. I would not call the PRC ammo +P, let alone +P+ or "red hot +P++". Use whatever you like, but nothing but foolishness to call the PRC ammo dangerous or over-loaded to dangerous pressures. In addition, a correct reading of the attached thread about the exploding Arty. Luger clearly indicates a poor "gunsmithing" job and not an ammunition problem. I will continue to use WWB in my Lugers, as they function 100% with that, but I would not hesitate to use the PRC 124 grain FMJ in any of my 9mm pistols. That's all I have to say on the issue, and I will not participate in any foolish pissing-match over this. Can't wait for a bit of "Global Warming" to hit my neighborhood! |
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I'm still waiting for some proof of that 1,400 fps, 124 grain German Army load from you. As of yet, I have received nothing but insults. Yes, I have quite a collection of Lugers ranging from a 1917 DWM to the later Mauser Parabellum recreations, if its any of your personal business. I wished you a good day, but you seem to be having a bad one. I sure hope that I am not the cause of it. Sieger |
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