Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

Hi all, I have a hypothetical question for you, but I may not be able to explain it very clearly. Please bear with me.


I have a 1937 military mauser from the "r" serial number series. The ejector is the only part not marked with the last two digits. It is unmarked.


If I were to find an ejector stamped with the last two digits of my serial number but from a different subscript (let's say the "c" serial number series), would my pistol be considered "all-matching?"


It doesn't seem like it should be, but as the Forum reminds me often enough, I'm a cherry and my instincts are seldom "right."


For the serious (advanced, superior, godlike or whatever they call themselves) collector: How do you verify that this substitution hasn't happened before, and does it even matter?


I apologize for any sarcasm, but sometimes the Forum is discouraging for a novice on a limited budget who can't compete with the big dogs.


Greetings and best regards from the U.S. Army. -Denny

Re: Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

WOOF! WOOF! WOOF!


Denny - Remember, stay low and move fast!


Jim

Re: Ejector vs extractor
 

Denny, The EJECTOR located on the right side of the receiver should be unnumbered. Perhaps you are confusing the name for the extractor located on top of the breech block, which should have the last two digit of the serial number stamped on top on military PO8s. Since this is an often damaged piece, I'd have no problem calling your pistol matching is it can be replace with an original matching Mauser extractor from the same time period, with the proper die set numbers and the correct matching finish. Tom h

Re: Ejector vs extractor
 

My bad, ejector is the incorrect part. I am referring to the extractor. Thank you for your kind correction, Tom.


Is there anyway to search for a time-correct, matching-finish, properly-marked extractor other than haunting dealers' parts boxes and gun shows?


My pistol has been refinished by someone before I got a hold of it, but I'd like to "complete" her before sending her to Ted for resurection.


Thanks! - Denny

Re: Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

I like your style Denny. Don't give up; keep asking questions. Enjoy your Luger

Re: Welcome Denny
 

Denny, Welcome to the forum. When I first joined I thought there was a real slug fest going on here and was hesitant to get on board. There is simply too much interesting and informative information to not get involved. There are people I learn from here every day.


Put a wanted add on the classifieds to ask others about finding your part with number. It's free. I wouldn't worry too much about finish as your luger has been re finished anyway and you plan to have Ted make it right again with his magic. Good luck! Jerry Burney

Re: Welcome Denny
 

Above all remember that it is your Luger, and if you would like a matching number extractor, go for it. You only have yourself to please.

Keep your eyes open...Thanks Jerry
 

Thanks Jerry, I appreciate your welcome. I put the ad in forum classifieds and sent out e-mails to Marstar, Sarco,and others listed in the links section of this page. For everyone who may see this post, keep your eyes open for a military Mauser extractor marked "61" (finish is unimportant)! You'll make this soldier's day if one surfaces! Thanks again and Essayons! - Denny

Re: Welcome Denny
 

Isn"t there someone who does renumbering for these parts?


Lonnie

Re: Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

In a recent conversation with a friend, Luger Expert, I mentioned a "matching" Luger; and he asked,

"Matched?" "By whom?"

Good thought. I wonder how many of our "matching" Lugers were completed by the Luger dealer or another collector.

Thank you, Luke. My point exactly! (EOM)
 

Re: Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

Hi,

I feel there is a very important point here that is being missed when talking about all matching. The small parts were originally issued with the last two digits on all the military models. When one of these small parts is numbered wrong, it means that someone has replaced it sometime. Now, that may not bother you, and it may be the way you received it from the vet and ect., but it still tells us that the part has been replaced and is not like it was originally issued. Does changing this part with one that has the correct number make it all matching? Yes! Does it make it all original? There has been some good discussions on this with mixed feelings. I personally feel that if the part is changed with a part from the same manufacture, with the same finish, and same style of numbers, that no one can tell when it was done, and it add value to the Luger as it no longer is a mis-matched Luger.

Re: Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

Hi Denny,


Welcome aboard


Regarding your extractor question, alas, it would not.


â??Matchingâ?� is collector shorthand for â??all original.â?� There is one and only one original extractor for each Luger. Once itâ??s gone itâ??s gone forever and the Luger is forevermore mismatched.


This is something folks who are new to collecting donâ??t understand, and sooner or later they all come up with the idea of making up â??matchingâ?� Lugers. It doesnâ??t work that way :-(


Taking an extractor from another Luger that happens to have the same last two serial number digits as your Lugerâ??s frame and putting that extractor on your Luger will not make it a matching Luger. It will just make it look like it is matching - in short, a fake. If you were then to offer the Luger for sale as matching the offer would be fraudulent. You could be criminally prosecuted and be subject to civil suit for fraud.


Since you will be having your Luger refinished itâ??s highly unlikely the issue of a swapped part would come up as the pistol will obviously be a â??shooterâ?� - and whether or not it appears to be matching wonâ??t matter. But it would be wise to be aware that part swapping does not create a matching pistol.


Hope this helps!


Best regards,


Kyrie

Kyrie is Right on Target
 

A pistol that is made to match by part substitution may pass the "original matching" test everywhere except in the conscience of the faker.

Re: Matching Luger -A Perponderance?
 

Is that a word? Anyway, I had a thought! Seldom occurs, I know! Hello fellows, If a guy find another sideplate that has the matching numbers but came form another Luger and he puts it on the Luger he is trying to get all the parts to match, but the take down lever is very very hard to close. He now takes the gun to gunshow and sells it and the new owner is constantly having to use a screw drive to open the take down to field strip and clean the gun and because the side plate doesnt fit properly, this action mars the finish........ Just a thought! And didn't the fonts change a little over time? (I know that is another thought) Thor

Re: Matching Luger -A Perponderance?
 

Maybe that should have been PONDERANCE!

Re: Kyrie is Right on Target
 

Without taking a position on whether replacing a part is Kosher, I am very much afraid that many of the Lugers out there were matched by a dealer with access to many parts. And, how would anyone else ever know? For that matter, if any of my Lugers were matched by some dealer or previous owner, how would I ever be able to tell? Further, if I sold one of them, I would surely not be DELIBERATELY passing a fraud or fake to the next buyer. The whole thing is a little disturbing, but we have to live with it.

Vet bring back non-collector piece?
 

As I was in the US Army, I can't tell you and I am under the impression that the Germans were aware of serial numbers. But if a Luger broke a firing pin, extractor or what ever else part in 1916, (1944 mihgt be a better example), I can't imagine that any unit armorer would give a rats ^&* if the number was wrong. In war, if it works, use it. If it was made to function, then so be it.


So, even tho the pistol was taken off of a dead SS Captain, it is a non-collector piece?


Ed

Arf! Arf!
 

Ain't no big dogs hear. Just me and my little dashound. Too bad I did knot find you sooner. I needed an unmarked ejaculator to put in my thingamaboob. I have a unmarked won butt some darned fool put Russian markings on it. Some French guy wants it butt thats a long swim for me to show it too him. I ended up buying a full toogle set on Ebay to get an unmarked won. Payed way two much. I have a spare butt its marked "50". I vote that you try two find a match. (I haven't had a match since Superman dyed. Hee! Hee!) When you dew, it will make you'r day. Its all part of the fun of collecting. If it ain't fun than it ain't worth doin.

PS

anybody have one of those big ol toogle hingh pins with the big head on it fore a navy Luger?

Big Norm

Re: Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

I can't believe it--all this for replacing an extractor. Find the right number if you can Denny. I doubt that the Gods will decend on you. The Luger will be more desirable to you, look better and who will know the difference a year from now. I wish some of our "fake detectives" would go after ben ladin and leave you guys alone. It isn't like you are a thief trying to fake a Million $ Luger!!!! and then palm it off for 2 mil.

Re: Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

!


That's a hash mark, I'm writing this down in my little black book, one extractor in a re-blued gun...


Art, you just never know? Denny might be knocking on your door next week trying to sell that bugger and get ya!


heh, heh,


Ed

Re: Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

Hi Bill,


I have to respectfully disagree. â??Not getting caughtâ?� isnâ??t the same thing as being honest :-(


Best regards,


Kyrie

Re: Kyrie is Right on Target
 

Hi Like,


Actually there are ways to spot most types of parts swapping - itâ??s a skill acquired over the years and the examination of a lot of Lugers. We emphatically do not have to live with it. A newbie buying his first high dollar collector grade Luger is well advised to have it examined by an older collector before plunking down his money. Or buy from an established collector/dealer with a good reputation who stands behind his Lugers.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Re: Vet bring back non-collector piece?
 

Hi Ed,


Lugers, unlike Colt 1911A1â??s were not made with fully interchangeable parts - there was a lot of hand fitting done during final assembly. When a part was replaced due to breakage that new part was numbered to the pistol for a very good reason - it might not work in any other Luger. Replacement parts were not numbered until they were used, and when used were numbered to the pistol.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Re: Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

Hi Art,


Actually itâ??s taking a $300 shooter and making it look like a $1200 collector grade gun. It wonâ??t fool most older collectors, but it will snag a newbie, and clipping a fellow for $900 is still not a nice thing to do.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Medic! I'm hit! (Osama Bin Luger)
 

You found me out folks. I'm really Osama Bin Luger, the pistol-faking terrorist who lies in wait at gunshows for anyone other than the venerable and holy "experts" here.


Seriously, please keep your eyes open for me (the magic number is "61").


I swear on my copy of the anarchists' cookbook that my pistol will never be passed off as anything other than what it is (MINE!).


Thanks for your replies both on- and offline. Happy holidays!


Denny

Re: Matching Luger -A Perponderance?
 

A high percentage of the Lugers out there show signs of having a screwdriver used on the takedown lever. This is not from the sideplate not matching, but from someone that has no idea how a Luger is torn down.

Seriously Doubt Anyone Can Tell
 

Hi,

There are a few small parts that one can tell have been changed if you know what to look for, like the extractor on a Mauser, or the side plate, but most like the rear connecting pin or the trigger in my opinion can not be detected. You are not committing fraud as you are restoring the gun back to an all matching gun from one that isn't. Someone else replaced the part with an incorrect one, and you can speculate all you want as to who, and what there reason was. This does not change the fact that the gun does not now have all matching numbers. You own the gun and you put a value on what is important to you -- all matching or not. In my opinion one should feel good to have restored a piece back to all matching, and shouldn't feel on bit guilty about replacing a mismatched part. Think about this, if you did not personally pick the Luger up at the factory, how do you know that any matching Luger is all original?

Re: Matching Luger -A Perponderance?
 

Johnny, I have seen a few that were impossible to take down without a leverage tool of some kind! That is not right, I have fairly strong fingers (I used them all day long) so I can say with good probability that something was amiss! My fingernails would break before the sucker would turn! ~Thor~

Re: Matching Luger -A Perponderance?
 

Johnny,

My "Bavaria Rural Police" Luger had been salt blued, but was all matching, however the Takedown Lever had been actually mangled by someone with a heavy hand. Shame.

Some good points, bill m. (EOM)
 

Re: Matching Luger -A Perponderance?
 

Luke,

You occasionally see one that the lever has actually been bent down in an attempt to move it.

Re: Matching Luger -A Perponderance?
 

Dok's Luger's takedown was bent so bad and worked so poorly that it had to be replaced and the new takedown/sideplate fit had to be adjusted. Thor




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Re: Matching Luger question - Don't Shoot!
 

Good comments. I'm pretty sure that one of the KU lugers mentioned in a previous discussion with a W/154 G date armour's spare barrel, is an unnumbered unissued barrel that I sold some years ago to a restorer who specializes in doing Kreighoffs. He claims to have refinished at least 25% of all of the KH PO8s listed by serial number in Gibson's book. Tom h.

Re: Arf! Arf!
 

Big Norm,


Ah gott wun, butt hit's in ma Navy an U kant hav hit!

Re: Seriously Doubt Anyone Can Tell
 

All this part replacing makes we wince when I read the classifieds where people are scouring the woods for a particular numbered part. And often the parts they are looking for are major ones, certain to interfere with proper functioning. IMO such ads should not be accepted in the Luger forum classifieds. There may be no fraud intended, but inevitably some buyer down the line will get hurt.