1917 Erfurt
 

I have a 1917 Erfurt Luger thats in great condition, altough not totally matched (2 parts). I was curious if anyone knew an approximate value, as Im considering selling it.

Re: 1917 Erfurt
 

There is no such thing as "totally matched" or "partially matched." A Luger is either matched or it isn't. Yours is not, so it qualifies as a shooter, or parts gun. Good shooters are worth a few hundred bucks to somebody, I guess.

Re: 1917 Erfurt
 

Lugers that are considered a matched Luger will normally have several INTERNAL parts serialized to the gun as well, such as the firing pin and hold open device. If you dont field strip the gun, you wont know if these two internal parts match also. Most sellers dont want you to disassemble their Lugers. ~Thor~

Re: 1917 Erfurt
 

The previous comment was FYI for the new Luger buyers/shooters/collectors and not to you Herbet as you seem to know this stuff already! Thor

Re: ALMOST Matching Lugers
 

Right, non matching Lugers!! Well, it seems like a common occurance is to see a Luger that has a mismatched sideplate with the remainder of the gun matched up. Any theories why this happened? I understand why we dont see too many matched magazines to guns but the sideplate mismatch has always been a quandry to me! Thor

Re: 1917 Erfurt
 

Respectfully Disagree. There has been a lot of this kind of advise including in the FAQ section of this forum. I submit the following observations:

1. Any Luger with a "mismatched magazine" is not completly matched, but I can assure anyone that does not destroy thier "collectability". I will buy all Mag mismatched 98% original finish Lugers as "shooters" for $400 ea from any fool willing to take that. In other words matching is and can be measured by degree.

2. Any Luger (or 98k or 1860 Colt Army etc...) with original finish (either factory original or military rework origin) even with some or in some cases all parts mismatched is a legit and correct collectors example for the context in which it was used after re-build. Example--a 1917 made 03 Springfield rifle that is rebarreled,re-stocked, re-finished in 1943 is a valid example of a WWII depot re-rebuild Springfield rifle...no argument. The same is true of cut down Navy Lugers, Police Lugers etc.. I don't care what Luger "collecters" like or don't like, it doesn't change historical context of a piece ...end of story. Every piece must be evaluated on it's individual merits and this always has some subjectivity to it.

3. If one has to collect Mint guns maybe they should consider commemoratives...they are worth about the same today as they were 30 years ago and they they don't have all of that bad ole wear, tear and parts replacement that occured regularly on combat used guns.

4. I simply recommend that everyone stand back a bit and evaluate the overall integrity of the piece before they write a Luger off as not worthy of a collection. Consider if mm sideplates were as common as mm magazines, would mm sideplates disqualify a Luger from collecter status? I hardly believe it would. But because they do not pervail on 75% of the Lugers around it (mm sideplate)becomes a discrimminater and in fact a wall between a collection Luger and a candidate for trashing out.

To Thor
 

My 12:59 post was not meant in response to your 3 post...I was writing while you were posting! I have often wondered about the sideplate deal as well (notice I used it in my previous post). I think a lot of GI's mixed them up and I could not rule out an occasional German field replacement to a lost one or a mix up by troops not paying attention..I'm sure they were trained to make they sure to keep numbered parts togeather but I bet mix ups occured anyway.

Re: To Thor
 

What a pity! Just something else to drive us Luger guys (and gals, including my wife) crazy! Thanks for the input! Thor

Re: 1917 Erfurt
 

So, Is this gun worth anything?

Re: 1917 Erfurt
 

Jon,

I would think with the current "import" reblued and mismatched lugers going for $400-$500 your original finish Erfurt should be worth at least that.

Craig

Sideplates
 

I was told a number [more than 50] of years ago, that removing a sideplate was a common method of making a Luger safe for transport and 'child-proof'. It will not function without the plate.


I was also told that surrendering Germans often removed the plate at that time to assure that the gun could not be used against them at once.


It was also said to be a common method of 'safing' the gun for long term storage just as some folks are now removing the bolts from rifles and hiding them...[which results in estate sales of rifles with no bolts!]


I have no documented proof...just stories. But, like you, I had wondered why it was so commonly mismatched?


My other question is....why are P38 locking blocks, likewise, the most common mismatched part on a P38?

Re: 1917 Erfurt
 

I would think that it is quite evident that a Luger with a mis-matched magazine is not totally matching. However, a matching pistol with a mis-matched magazine is much more collectible than a Luger with a mis-matched small part. Many completely matching Lugers exist, and completely matching rigs also exist. While an arsenal rebuilt weapon has collectibility, it will never approach the collectibility of a completely original matching weapon. The problem with arsenal rebuilt weapons is that there is no evidence that the rebuild was actually done in an arsenal or in someone's garage. The M1D Rifle is a good example of this. Every M1D Rifle was converted from a standard M1 Rifle, and every part that it took to build the M1D has been available on the market for years. The DCM and CMP have sold quite a few of the M1D's in the past several years, and the paperwork is the only assurance that you have a US arsenal built M1D.

There are no hard an fast rules as to what constitutes collectibility, as it means different things to different people. If some like factory new guns that is their game, and if others like guns that appear to have "been there" that is their game. One person cannot decide for someone else what to collect. You can only offer guidance when ask, and let the person decide for themselves.

Re: 1917 Erfurt
 

Jon--I have to agree with BBC. Don't give it away. It surely is more valuable than a mismatch import selling for $450 to $500. It is not impossible to find a matching side plate.

Re: Sideplates
 

I am in your age bracket Orv, and have heard the same stories. I had nine uncles that went to Europe. They had no reason to lie to me. Regards locking blocks; I have replaced quite a few used by shooters that were using too-hot handloads. Have replaced a lot of top covers and rear sights also.

Re: Sideplates
 

Hi Orv,


Alas, the story that the side plate was removed to make the pistol safe is untrue :-(


The cannon of a Luger is a fully functional firearm in and of itself. Removing the side plate just exposes the sear bar plunger and the front of the sear bar. If there is a round in the chamber pressure on the sear bar plunger or the front of the sear bar will cause the cannon to discharge.


Moreover, the side plate and trigger bar were hand fitted parts. Swapping side plates between Lugers can create Lugers that cannot be fired, or that fire with light (or no) pressure on the trigger.


Field striping a Luger results in three parts assemblies; the frame assembly, the cannon assembly, and the side plate assembly. The side plate assembly is by far the smallest and the easiest to lose - which IMHO is why so many side plates are mismatched.


Hope this helps!


Best regards,


Kyrie

Re: 1917 Erfurt
 

Hi Jon,


Yes sir, it is - shooter value. Roughly somewhere between $200 - $500, depending on mechanical and cosmetic condition. It just doesnâ??t have any collector value :-(


Best regards,


Kyrie

Re: 1917 Erfurt
 

Hi Folks!


Letâ??s not confuse â??collectableâ?� and â??collector value.â?� In a world where people collect scraps of used tin foil and pieces of string just about anything is collectable


Mismatched Lugers (excluding those with only mismatched magazines) have no collector value. Thatâ??s the market reality. Comparisons of Luger collecting to the collecting of US arms are not valid. US military arms come from a tradition of fully machine made firearms with all parts interchangeable. Thatâ??s the reason small parts on US military firearms are not numbered. Lugers come from a very different tradition - firearms produced with a great deal of hand fitting of parts to individual firearms, making parts interchangeability low.


The collectors of US military firearms (like the â??03 Springfield) have no way of ever knowing if the parts that compose their rifle have been replaced by a previous owner - and donâ??t care. Luger collectors can know if a Luger has been altered by a previous owner, and do care.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Upper Assembly
 

In some countries, I am told, the upper unit is considered a gun for that reason. I know that you can press on the side and make it fire.


As an aside, they talk about what a terrible/unsafe gun the Jap [may I say Jap?...or is it like Kraut?] T-94 is because it is unsafe...but the Luger is not...and they both can be fired by pressing on the side!

Re: Upper Assembly
 

Lugers with mismatched magazines but all other parts matching have not been tampered with. Mismatched parts other than the magazine indicate the pistol has been tampered with. Perhaps it represents only a field repair, but it can just as easily be the result of clumsy amateur experimentation. It seems to me that all the owners of mismatched Lugers are coming out of the woodwork to defend what may be their not so desireable specimens. Kind of like defending one's wife even though you know in your heart she is really third rate.

Seems logical, Kyrie.
 

It is not hard to imagine a side plate being lost during an emergency field strip for clearing out mud or dirt in a combat environment, especially if the soldier happened to be in a foxhole knee deep in water or mud.

Re: Upper Assembly
 

I don't think anyone is "defending" mis-matched sideplates here......there is no defense. It is either matched, or it is not. Just pointing out some of the common reasons as to why the sideplate may lose the pistol. And safety and kids was one of those reasons. Wish I had a dollar for every cheap Winchester and Remington bolt gun I've replaced the bolt in because Mom hid the original.

Re: Upper Assembly
 

I don't consider replacing a part as necessarily tampering with it and this includes the magazine. I will not argue that the prevailing current doctrine in Luger collecting does in fact lean toward any mis-matching (other than mag) disqualifies a piece as a collecter grade Luger. I am challenging this way of thinking however as being improper esp. when taken to extremes. I beileve that it all started with Datig's book in the late 50's when Fred wrote of how to distinguish Lugers that were made up from piles of surplus parts (hardly the case with a Luger that has a MM firing pin or hold-open). Most true tampering that I have seen on Lugers involves modern parts re-numbering (to match) and messing around with the finish to make them 98+ % blue. It is a natural human tendency to look for any thing that can distinguish something or put it in a catagory, esp. true with collecters. It just seems very artificial to me and somewhat of a cop out to say that a mismatched mag is OK but a mismatched hold open means it is just a shooter. By the way all of my Lugers are matched except some with mm magazines.

Re: Sideplates
 

Semantics re-visited: I think you will find that if someone, albeit not so knowledgeable, thinks removing the side plate will safe the pistol; it safes the pistol. So much for German policemen.

Re: Seems logical, Kyrie.
 

Does anyone on this list remember the old HiHunter catalogue that was published in the 1950s? In the rear of the catalogue, (The best part to my young eyes) were photos of GIs and captured German POWS cleaning, sorting, packing and crating German rifles and pistols. If memory serves, there was one shot of a corporal with a stub of a cigar in his mouth and a pile: 30-40 disassembled lugers on a table. A pile of cannons, a pile of frames and a pile of side plates. Corporals being what they are, it doesn't seem much of a stretch to imagine that corporal not caring what side plate went with what P-08. Nor is it much of a stretch to imagine several hundreds of corporals doing similar things from 1945 thru the early 1950s.


I think this is a pretty good hypothesis on why so many P-08s are mismatched.


FWIW,


Tom

Re: Seems logical, Kyrie.
 

I still have that catalog Tom. The picture I always liked best showed a G.I. standing beside a large crate, with open top, that appears to be 5 feet square, and 4 feet high. The crate is FULL of Luger pistols just randomly tossed onto one another. In the background, you see several other crates; some with P.38's. The good 'ol days!

Re: Upper Assembly
 

I do agree with this thinking. I understand and realize there has to be a point where you call a gun a collector and when you call it a shooter. But I was under the impression that NRA standards allow certain small parts to be replaced?


My 1940 has a complete upper assembly and frame of two guns, so somewhere, someone has my matching parts! So instead of a shooter, it'd be what a 80 - 85% Collector?


How do you judge the percentage? I mean, I know it is done by the eye and is very judgemental, but what constitutes mssing blueing?


Ed

Re: Sideplates
 

And so it continues----The guys with the Bucks and all match mint Lugers will not conceed that the man of average means, who has a selecton of Lugers that are anything less, has collectible Lugers. My collecttion numbers more than 100 and in range both ways from 90%. Yes I have about 12 that are import marked such as 4 variations of the G date[ I have one 98% G in addition] One is a KU: with import marks and all match except side[trigger]plate. I am quite confident that is will bring more than $400-$500 and not even God can convince me that it is not collectible. Come on you people with less than %98 Lugers---stand up and defend yourselves. With the thousnds and thousands of less than mint Lugers out there---surely there are more of us than there are of them.

Coporals being what they are?
 

Tom, first Krauts, then Japs, and now corporals? Will this Forum ever stop bashing people? I was a corporal a very short time ago and wore the stripes with pride. (I'm serious about the pride, but ribbing you about bashing those dirty corporals) Take care, Sgt. Denny Cox, U.S. Army

I'll stand with you on this Art...
 

I only own TWO lugers, neither would be considered collectible by the folks with the big bucks, but each of mine has it's own history and value or I wouldn't have purchased them.


BTW, Mine only cost me about $100 each in the 1970's and I would dare say they are worth a bit more than that now. You can see BOTH of mine in the owner's corner.


regards to all,


John

Re: Sideplates
 

Art,

I guess it has a lot to do with whomever appointed the person that gets to say what is collectible and what it not. This does not leave room for much subjectivity if this position was attained by royal ascension. If this is a self appointed position, then we can all chuckle and consider the source.

Re: Sideplates
 

Hi Folks,


Once more - donâ??t confuse â??collectableâ?� with â??collector value.â?� Anything someone collects is â??collectable.â?� Collector value, OTOH, is determined by the market - and mismatched Lugers simply donâ??t have much in the way of collector value.


Art, I donâ??t doubt or dispute all your Lugers, regardless of condition and whether matching, are collectable. But if you should ever decide to sell one of the mismatched Lugers from your collection donâ??t be disappointed if all you realize from the sale is shooter value. Thatâ??s just the reality of the marketplace in Lugers. Unless, of course, you can find someone who doesnâ??t know the Luger market


Best regards,


Kyrie

Re: I'll stand with you on this Art...
 

Yes, John, you are without a doubt a genuine Luger collector. You are just not an ADVANCED collector.

Re: Sideplates
 

I'm with you Art. As far as I'm concerned any gun that hasn't been made in 55+ years is a collectable whether any numbers match or not.

Re: All Lugers have value
 

Yes, having all numbers match is fine and may command the highest price. However, IMHO, condition, condition, and condition must play a part in any guns value. I see Lugers with all numbers matching with only a fair bore. IMHO, all Lugers will increase in value over time. Its just that the mint ones will always command higher prices is all. A diary of a previous owner can value too. So, numbers don't always have to match to have a great Luger. I have an all numbers match including magazine Artillery that is a shooter for me. The outside of the gun is pitted with inconsistant blue on each side of the gun. The gun was rarely shot but poorly stored. My first shot with the gun was dead center one inch high at 15 yards. My question now is do I preserve the gun by having it re-blued or let it rust and pit. What would you do?

Re: Sideplates
 

This must be about round 15 in this fight in the last two years-nothing wrong about differences in opinions but I hear a lot of useless generalizing here.


I am a working stiff-retiring soon-I can buy a decent luger once in a while--I will buy only a matched-except for magazine-pistol. I think that is first priority for most folks who are collectors of lugers. Originality is at the top of my hierarchy--no hold open is better than added hold open etc. Unit marks are cool-double dates are historical and cool too. Matching Vopos will probably become cool in the near future.


Any luger is cool-I just don't like some people inferring others are wrong or off base because of their preferences.


The market place speaks for itself.


End of rant- enjoy yer lugers


MikeP

Re: Sideplates
 

My name is Art Buchanan. I guess I just didn't know any better than to use my real name when I joined the forum. Iam 62 years old. I have been collectiing Lugers for more than 40 years. I am a middle class citizen who is retired on a middle class retirment income. There is a whole bunch I don't know about Lugers. But in 40 years I have crossed paths with a whole lot more middle class collectors than rich collectors. [prehaps this is due to my income bracket]. I have been on Shattucks mailing list since early 1960s. I have some knowledge of Luger values and condition and value associated with condition. Certainly a $2000 Luger bought now may be worth maybe $3000 in 10 years.That is great if one can aford the initial investment. A $400 Luger purchased now may only be worth $600 in 10 years. That may be what a person can afford, but they are still a collector and have some expectation of appreciation in value. If one, in my opinion ,is a collector investment was not the only motive for buying Lugers. However there likely exist opportunists and wheelers/ dealers that are more concerned with profit and status than love of the Luger. I have participated in this forum for only a few months and I am frankly disappointed. The little guy with one or two,or perhaps first Luger doesn't have a change. I try to give serious answers to reasonable questions ask by new guys instead of jumping on their Luger. From time to time some of the forum people get personal, just as someone who calls themself Johnny Peppers as directed to me. This may be a real name or just a handle to hide behind. Either way the conduct is inappropriate for a world wide forum. I wonder sometimes if I participate for the same reason that people watched sportscaster,Howard Cosell,--they loved to hate him. If investment is the only reason one buys Lugers then I submit that there are a few investors and a whole lot of collectors. I believe the guy that bought his first Luger wasn't thinking about future value---just how can I pay for it now. I recommend that the FAQ "Shooter Lugers" be deleted and more appropriate commentary on various types and grades of Lugers that people of various means collect. Buy the way, I have a few $2000+ Lugers but a whole lot more that I value equally as part of my collection that are worth a whole lot less.

Re: I'll stand with you on this Art...
 

Well Art, I think y'all know my stand on this.


I appreciate the fine 95% guns, but I like the guns that have a realy history to them, were carried by soldiers, airmen and marines.


Ed

Me too Art (as Hugh said, ) (EOM)
 

Well said Mr. Buchanan! I'm with you! (EOM)
 

Re: Me too Art (as Hugh said, )
 

I made a mistake. I misinterpreted Johnny Peppers statement about self appointed Royalty. It was not directed to me. I have apologized to him personally and do so again in presence of all here assembled. Sorry Johnny!