Russian Lugers at Phoenix Investment Arms
 

I noticed a long thread here (way too long to read!) about Russian Lugers, and took a look at Phoenix, and they have two up ...One a 1900 Russian, the other a 1906 Russian with Tula Arsenal proofs...

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...3Russian00.htm

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com.../827Russ06.htm

Very interesting historical Lugers, which I noticed Walter mentioned only briefly in his The Luger book... :)

The one listed as a 1900 Russian is in my price range; in fact, if I sell my house, I could buy two... :roflmao:

Postino, read the last, or latest posting by Albert Beliard (Imperial Arms) on this and Jan Still's Forums. His presentation in the form of a contest in "luger naming" espouses his latest thinking, supported by our Bulgarian contingent (Pavlov), that these lugers are not Russian lugers at all but Bulgarian lugers apparently sent to a Bulgarian Infantry regiment with many Russian soldiers as part of the regiment. The theory is compelling and hard to refute, especially as to why the words stamped on the safety area and extractor are 100% Bulgarian, and not "old Russian" as the old (read former) theorists lead us to believe. If this is so, how do we explain the 1900 "Russian"? Is this rare example an outright fake, an early "Bulgarian" or "Russian" salesman's piece to garner a contract, or ?? The Tula proof on the barrel of the 1906 "Russian-Bulgarian" is explained by Albert in the text. This is fine food for discussion, stay tuned!

Hello Dr Buster -

Phoenix Investments has a pretty good history of the Russian Lugers. I spent over an hour reading up on them on their site. They kind of spread the notes around, on the different Lugers for sale, and also in their Archived Lugers section.

Lots of interesting and definitive information there!!! :thumbup:

A total lack of the above, you mean? Al that is claimed about the 'Russian luger' on the site is completely unproven, not backed by external sources and/or references. A bit worthless. Also take into account that PIA has a long history of being the outlet for dubious collector pieces.

Rich,

You probably enjoy reading fiction about Lugers as well as accepting various flawed information mentioned by PIA, so I suggest that you do some reading which may help you and save your wallet.

Albert

Yes, I will get to that thread soon...Right now I am reading about Spandau Lugers and Deaths Head Lugers over at Jan Stills site...and Swedish & Finnish Lahti's at WarRelics.eu... Much interesting stuff being presented there... :thumbup:

Still puzzled about why a railroad - whether in Germany, Finland, or Sweden - would need sidearms...Did the British railroad also carry sidearms??? Why would any of them??? :confused:

Land of Borchardt has a page devoted to the Russian Lugers...Even listing verified serial numbers...

http://www.landofborchardt.com/other.html

Postino, in the past, when mail was carried by the railroads (at least in America), train workers routinely carried side arms, usually Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers to protect themselves, and the mail which may have contained currency, etc. In the lore of the Old West, the James brothers were notorious for robbing trains. I'm sure that their example caught on with the European railroads as well. Having armed train workers was thus not unusual, especially in the era of steam locomotives (prior to 1950).

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbuster (Post 168370) Postino, in the past, when mail was carried by the railroads (at least in America), train workers routinely carried side arms, usually Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers to protect themselves, and the mail which may have contained currency, etc. In the lore of the Old West, the James brothers were notorious for robbing trains. I'm sure that their example caught on with the European railroads as well. Having armed train workers was thus not unusual, especially in the era of steam locomotives (prior to 1950).

And the US was/is much less dependent on the railroads than say Europe...and yet the exploits of US bandits is more popularized than Europeans...but this is 1900-on that these weapons were being issued (or sold) to railroads...Lugers, Lahtis, whatever else...You would think that there would be more known about the threat (perceived or real) that these weapons were supposed to counter...Were there famous European train robbers???

When I was young, back in the late 50's, our primary school class went on a "field trip" to the local Federal Reserve Bank in Buffalo, NY...I recall that they had a floor rack of submachine guns for defense...all Reisings...with 20 rd mags...Another strange instance of arming an institution...

A bit of the history of the German Railway Police may be found in Chapter 19 of History Writ in Steel. Germany still has an armed Bahnschutz.

Rich,

Give me a break (from LOB)! - "Even listing verified serial numbers...". Are you also going to mention that the M1900 Mexican Army contract Lugers are 'verfied'? You have obviously not carefully read my first article about the 'Russian Lugers'. I suggest you read my two articles on the same topic and gain some 'universal' knowledge before you go out to do any 'shopping' and make a serious mistake.

The web site "Land of Borchardt" should be changed to the "Land of Bull****" as a result of the many errors it contains!

Albert

Albert -

Actually, I was just over at your site looking at your collection of Interesting Firearms (including the cased Bolo w/stock that Alvin lusts after! :) )...but except for a single picture of each, there is no description or story behind each example... :(

Do you have anecdotes about each of these??? Like many here, I enjoy the stories (or history) behind an unusual pistol... :thumbup:

Where would our site be with Good O'le Albert??

Hello Rich,

When I had created my web site, I did not see any reason to write a story for each item because most of the information could be found in reference books such as 'Lugers at Random'. When it comes to the more rare and expensive pistols, I just happened to notice that there was less interest in these pistols when the majority of the collectors on the forums are interested in pistols that they can afford such as military Lugers, C96 'Red Nines' and Walther PP/PPK pistols, all of which I appreciate and admire.

Some of my pistols have a very interesting background and I shall share this information if I receive a question. The web site LOB wants to 'brag' about his level of expertise and the importance of this collection, and he designed his web site around this goal. Of course, many collectors say 'Wow' when they view/visit LOB, but unfortunately, they do not know what is occurring under the 'surface' as well as not realizing that some of the rambling articles are flawed and make no sense with regards to actual historical events. One of the strategies of LOB is to apply his archive of literature to write his 'stories' and I can say with confidence that my archive is larger and more important than LOB. Furthermore, I have been able to interprete this vast amount of information better than LOB in conjunction with my fellow collectors in Europe instead of relying on a handful shady individuals.

Many collectors want to receive a continous 'rush of excitement' by discovering new information without being patient or getting involved in the quest for knowledge. They want everything served on a silverplater and that will not happen by sitting on one's rear-end, or going to gun shows to chat with beer-buddies.

You have no idea how much time I spend talking with collectors all around the world by telephone, VoIP or on forums, whereas LOB remains invisible. LOB has a 'colorful' web site, but the writer behind the web site does not impress me. In addition, dealers or collectors who endorse such people put a bad taste in my mouth because these are the people who spoil this great hobby of collecting.

Albert

Did I see the word "brag" in there somewhere?:)

Folks do not make a website unless they are trying to show off their things, whether you call this bragging or not. There is no reason to have a website except to show things off or attempt to sell something.

When I see a bunch of pictures, i have no idea if the owner even owns the guns themself. (I am sure you do, but your vaugness is a bit odd about the pieces)


It doesn't hurt to be from germany to be in the area and study, but you always act as if being european gives you a better understanding of lugers by being european. That makes little sense.




Ed

PS: I did read your writings on the russian guns, but I am not convinced that russian contracts don't exist. I have always felt they were a small contract and the earliest books talk about them being a contract (but then they talk about mexican lugers too, and I don't beleive in any of them)

Hello Ron,

I am not deliberately 'bragging' when I mention the size/contents of my archive, and I am not 'broadcasting' it over the Internet (through a web site with all that flash animation and pop-up dialogue boxes as used by LOB).

LOB has sometimes referred to certain plain/general artwork in his literature to support his claims/theories which are not exactly true. For example, a piece of artwork which has appeared in early literature showing a Tangent Sight Luger (with a push-button) is often described as a Navy Luger in dealer catalogs. In regards to Mauser literature, the use of a 'Step-Barrel' Cone Hammer is actually representing a Standard Cone Hammer or whatever type of C96 pistol was available in stock at the time.

Albert

Hello Ed,

I enjoy reading web sites where I can gain some knowledge or meet new collectors. I believe that it would helpful to the collectors society if more collectors would share their collections online, whether it is on a web site, forum or image gallery. When some writers 'cross the line' without sufficient proof or evidence, then they can expect criticisms.

For example, my web site Imperial Arms is straight forward and the items in my collection are under the category 'Personal Collection'. If you need further clarification or information about any item that I display on my web site, you are welcome to contact me directly.

I have to disagree with your interpretation that my European nationality (German) has nothing to do with a better understanding about Lugers. I have learned about Lugers, Mausers and Walthers from both 'schools' (American and European), but the US tends to have a higher degree of fakes and, consequently, I have been leaning more on the European side. I wish to seize this opportunity to mention that the esteemed Ron is very knowledge about Lugers and I have even learned one or two things from him during my continuous education.

You have the freedom to believe whatever you want including whether or not there exists a 'Russian Luger'. Maybe those old phrases or words such as "The Russians are coming", 'Communists', 'the enemy', 'nuclear threat' will maintain you as a critic to support the survival of the Russian Luger, but I reckon that my theory explaining that it is another Bulgarian variation is more compelling and convincing than anything else that has been presented in the past.

Thank you for your comments.

Albert

I know you have been talking about LOB, which I hold the same opinion, although I do not know the website owner. It has pretty guns, but not always accuarate information.

And I mean no offense, but I find it odd that you display guns with no information? I simply do not understand the reasoning there? Saying, well, if folks want to know more they should ask, is a bit; well weird.

Why display them ;)

I mean they are very rare guns aren't they? So display them and teach at the same time is my feeling? But its your website and you can do as you want. :) :thumbup:

I will re-read the thread / informational article you wrote on the russian lugers and see if I simply read it too fast and missed something.


Ed

I figure it this way, Hes always entertaining and like television, you can always change channels.

...???...Then the ones under the category "Interesting Firearms" on your site aren't your collection??? :confused:

That is disappointing...Those are the ones I like to read about...Like how a prototype was selected (or modified for acceptance) or rejected...or even stories about how it came to be in the owner's possession (like the looting of the FN plant in Belgium)...or even personal stories...

My Godfather had a double barrel rifle/shotgun (one barrel each) and a Mauser 98K rifle that [according to him] he picked right off the assembly line when his unit overran the facility that housed them (sorry; I don't recall where) during WW II...He brought both of them home with him...Sadly, he passed on while I was serving overseas and it's unknown which son-in-law (3 daughters; all divorced) ended up with them...

It's that kind of anecdote that I enjoy reading... :)

Albert, I remember reading somewhere that you were not able to read or speak German well?

Ah, found your reference.

I don't know a whole lot about Lugers in general, but I find this thread highly entertaining.

- WOT

+ 1

At Albert's suggestion(s), I am trying to wade through his dissertations, both here and at Jan Still's Forum (the theory seems the same, but of course the responses differ) and am finding it heavy going... :banghead:

...And I am still exploring the Spandau Luger and Death's Head Luger threads over there, of which there are many, and in one of which Jan has posted links to several old threads... :(

All fascinating stuff, and as WOT noted...highly entertaining... :thumbup:

Hello Vlim,

You are correct that I do not read or speak German (very little), however, some of my fellow collectors in Europe have been very helpful to me providing translations and other valuable information.

My parents raised me with English while we were living in Africa in some French speaking countries. My French is modest to good and I wish that I could have learned German.

Albert

I am glad that you are enjoying it. However, there are some stubborn critics who are afraid of the truth after various information is weighed. They are going to continue to rely on weak information and excuses.

Albert

Hello Ted,

Let me try and 'break it down for you' with reference to my two articles which strongly discounts the 'Russian Luger' theory:

1. Anchor symbol = Navy division/organization;
2. Crossed swords symbol = Cavalry division/organization;
3. Crossed canons symbol = Artillery division division/organization;
4. Crossed rifles symbol = Infantry division/organization.

The 'M1906 Russian Luger' has 100% Bulgarian markings.

The 'Russian Luger' is in a contract pistol and was not for commercial sales. There is nothing on it which ties it directly to Russia - only confusion.

If you are saddened that the 'Russian Luger' is crumbling, I am sorry to disappoint you. Nonetheless, you can continue to be a critic and that is your choice. Until I learn or hear something which is stronger, I am sticking to the 'Bulgarian theory' which makes more sense. Explain to me your reasons why it is a 'Russian Luger' without any emotion and imagination, or making reference to 'those earliest books' - which ones and who wrote those books?

Check this out - I hope that I don't 'shot myself in my foot' by saying that the M1906 Portuguese Navy Contract Lugers were instead a Spanish contract (when I happen to have an outstanding Portuguese Royal Navy rig in my collection)!! (just kidding) Using your line of thought, why not?

Albert

Hello Rich,

It would be wonderful and satisfying if collectors would use a sensible and simple way of thinking (so you don't need to :banghead:), but this is not the case. There will be some 'old stubborn goats' who will be critics, but that's alright. It just needs time for it to sink in - it is like politics!

The quicker you adopt to a logical and historical way of thinking, the faster you will learn. And keep away from the 'sharks' who want to misinform you and put their hand in your pocket. Of course, the phrase "I wish...." makes us collectors excited, but it is a anti-climax when it turns out to be false.

Good luck,
Albert

Hello Rich,

I wish I was a multi-millionaire to own everything depicted on my web site Imperial Arms. Those items under the category 'Interesting Firearms' are items I have photographed in other personal collections and museums.

I apologize if the images only have a title when the mouse is over the image, without including a headline and a detailed description. When I have the time and new web design software, I shall make an effort to improve and update the presentation and entertaining aspect of my web site. In the mean time, I shall instead present information on the forums which collectors and quickly find and read.

Enjoy,
Albert

"And I mean no offense, but I find it odd that you display guns with no information? I simply do not understand the reasoning there? Saying, well, if folks want to know more they should ask, is a bit; well weird."

For example, it the past 10 years, I have only received three questions about my Cartridge Counter, of which two questions have been "is it for sale?". Although I am flattered by such a question, why should I write something about these pistols on my web site when I shall not receive any intelligent questions?

"Why display them" ;)

I created my web site in early 2001 and I did not have the time to continously update it with new material while gathering information for my book project on the Mauser C96. Displaying such guns gives collectors the idea of what is still surviving and what items might still be discovered.

"I mean they are very rare guns aren't they? So display them and teach at the same time is my feeling? But its your website and you can do as you want." :) :thumbup:

I agree that it is important to educate new and seasoned collectors, but I cannot juggle many things at the same time. I shall bear it in mind to update my web site in the near future. In the next update of my web site (or I shall add it instead to the forums), I shall show you fellows the finest and most complete genuine M1917 LP-08 rig - it will make you cry! I need to bring everything together and I still have the parts in different countries.

"I will re-read the thread / informational article you wrote on the russian lugers and see if I simply read it too fast and missed something."

That would be a good idea - chew before you swallow! ;)

I enjoy participating on the forums which have lead me a few times to some great stuff, and I shall continue to share my knowledge with other collectors who share the same energy as me.

Cheers,
Albert

Yes indeed...It seems every collector considers themself "The Authority" when it comes to questions on their interests... :rolleyes:

When you come right down to it, the best advice is...

Trust...No One... :D

Come to think of it, I recently picked up a box of 9mm para that came from Spanish storage and dated from the Spanish civil war. It was filled with ammunition made in Portugal and by DWM in Berlin.

So be careful what you wish for :cheers:

Anyway, back on topic.

The key points sofar that point towards Bulgarian rather than Russian origin in my opinion are:

-The markings are Bulgarian, not Russian.
-During the contract years, Bulgaria was severing it's ties with the Ottoman (Turkish) empire.
-Early documents, including one from Hans Tauscher, of 1906, and of the Swiss KTA, of 1911 only mention Bulgarian contracts, not Russian.
-Bulgaria had enough Mosin-Nagants to validate the use of M-N rifles on the chamber.

The issues that need to be resolved are.
-The fact that DWM was not allowed to sell to Bulgaria between 1907 and 1914 as a result of a cartel agreement with Steyr.
-No historical record of these lugers in contemporary Russian and Bulgarian documents found sofar.
-No recollection by August Weiss about these contracts, which suggest that, if they took place, they took place long before WW1.

Some consolidation:
-Bulgarian archives appear to be well preserved.
-Cartel agreement between Steyr and DWM means that DWM could only deliver to Bulgaria with approval of Steyr: Hence, possible proof in Steyr / Austrian archives.
-Russian archives are well preserved as well.

The bad news:
-DWM archives used to light the stove and as improvised kleenex during crisis times.
-Most of us lack Bulgarian and Russian language capabilities.

Could they have announced these pistols as being destined for Russia and not Bulgaria in order to circumvent their agreement with Steyr?

It would not be the first time this has occured

Possible, perhaps, but I don't think so.

There is a comparison possible with a Mauser contract for Serbia (Mauser, being the daugher company of DWM, was subjected to the same rules). Since Mauser had already delivered rifles to Serbia before the cartel agreement, they were allowed, through Steyr, to deliver an additional amount of some 32,000 rifles to Serbia during the cartel period.

Since DWM had already delivered to Bulgaria before the agreement, it is safe to assume that if DWM did deliver to Bulgaria between 1907-1914, they followed the same process as Mauser: i.e. delivery with full support of Steyr.

Of course, Steyr would be compensated for the transactions.

Hello Vlim,

I am glad to read that you are on the 'Bulgarian theory' side, but notice how the critics will continue to cling on to the 'Russian theory' without being able to put forth any strong information! If early documents ("including one from Hans Tauscher, of 1906, and of the Swiss KTA, of 1911 only mention Bulgarian contracts, not Russian") do not mention a Russian contract, what are the critics trying to believe and hope for?

Albert

I've decided that I simply have to have a Russian Luger...Now that I have a good idea of what to look for...

Let's see what GB and GA have to offer...

Oww...Only one on GB...

Luger, DWM,1906 Russian contract, 9mm

Description for Item # 146584853

This one of the rare Lugers for the Luger collector. This is one of 1000 that was manufactured by DWM for Russia in a 1906 contract. This gun is number 44X. This pistol has a "CAL 9MM" marked magazine. The pistol is in excellent condition. It has been professionally restored and it is correct, including the extractor. I have personally seen five Russian Lugers, but I am sure there are a few more. Thank you for looking and good luck bidding. Bank transfer, checks, PayPal or credit cards are accepted, but there is a 3 percent charge if paid by Paypal or credit card. Thank you for looking.

No Reserve...Starting Bid $6500... :eek:

Oww...he has a Royal Portuguese Navy 1906 contract Luger starting at $6500 too... :rolleyes:

Wow...Should I pull my bid off that Borchardt and get one of these???...Decisions, decisions... :crying:

OK, let's look at GA...

GA has one...

1906 RUSSIAN CONTRACT

ALL ORIGINAL 1906 LUGER, NO RESTORATION,95% BLUE, 65% STRAW,ALL NUMBERS ARE MATCHING INC. MAG,THIS RARE LUGER IS CERTIFIED BY TWO WORLD RENOWED LUGER EXPERTS,(DOCUMENTS AVAIL )DWM SCROLL,NO STOCK LUG,GRIP SAFETY,CROSSED NAGANT RIFLES,SAFETY IN CYRILLIC,GOOD BORE,NICE MATCHING GRIPS,MAG BOTTOM ONE HALF EAR MISSING,THREE DIGIT SER # 5XX,ONLY 6 ( NOW 7 ) SAMPLES HAVE BEEN REPORTED. THIS IS ONE OF THE RAREST LUGER IN ANY COLLECTION./////////THIS GUN IS NOW IN THE COLLECTION OF AN OTHER GREAT LUGER COLLECTOR AND I WILL DEARLY MISS IT ///

Price = $15,555.00

I'll pass on that one...No pics... :mad:

Let's try AA...

Humph!!! No Russian Contract Lugers on AA... :(

I'll have to email for more pics on that GB Russian Contract Luger...

Here's the top - pic attached...

DWM, crossed M-N rifles on chamber, grip safety, no stock lug...looks good so far... :thumbup:

Rich,

You should instead play the stock market!! I guess the 'Russian Luger' is getting your juices flowing!

Good luck,
Albert

Albert -

I searched GB, AA, and GA for "Bulgarian Contract Luger", but except for this barreled receiver, there weren't any... :(

(Well, there was one, but it was so buffed out that you couldn't see any of the markings)... :mad:

Rich,

You need to read up on the Bulgarian variations:

1. M1900/03 Bulgarian in caliber 7,65 mm;
2. M1906 Bulgarian in caliber 7,65 mm (some rebarreled to 9 mm);
3. M1908 Bulgarian (as shown in your previous post);
4. M1908 Bulgarian Infantry Officer's Model (ex-Russian Luger).

That should give you something to chew on and hopefully make you realize the Russian Luger is sinking fast.

Enjoy,
Albert

Russian luger
 

Albert I must say it's a true pleasure reading your posts.
thank You

Richie