ATF Inspection
 

Has anyone here with a C&R license had an ATF inspection? I got a call today from an ATF agent who is coming out tomorrow to inspect my bound book. I would like to hear about anyones experience with this, and what to expect.
Thanks.:(

On main gunboards, folks have experienced this; but its uncommon.

From what I understand is that they check, but not as thourghly as a a 01.

Many folks have no idea what a 03 and 01 can do. The ATF agents I have dealt with for my 01 were very nice and helpful, but they would quote things about 03's that was incorrect.

Give them limited information, be friendly, but don't offer anything.

You can request another time if this time is inconvient to you...


Ed

some thread here
 

Hugh ,

there is a prior thread somewhere here on the forum with some recent posts

sorry dont recall the main subject

included what appeared to be good info to know

Bill

In addition to what Ed said, you can request that the inspection of the books be done at their office.

My local FFL 01 was telling me the other day that the current Administration is asking the BATF to do more inspections on
C & R 03 license holders. He owns a very busy gun store.

I've heard stories that they have been busting C&Rs at gun shows who were dealing non-C&R guns. Maybe the reason they are stepping up the inspections.

In my opinion, the reason they are allowing you to come to their office for the audit. Is more to determine your character, than to check your records. They are trying to weed out the Culls.

Let us know what happens. They hit my VISA card over a month ago for my renewal, but I have got nothing back.

H

ATF has never stood its ground against the local political background. They will always blow whichever way the current administration suggest they do.
Remember the massive culling of garage based FFLs and C&Rs under Klinton?
Something like 275K FFLs were eliminated or not renewed during that period by using zoning laws, withholding of renewal forms, insurance dodges and other methods. Many storefront FFLs stood by and some even applauded this purge, claiming that garage based FFLs were hurting their business. I won't argue this either way, but you can be sure that crackdowns and tightening of regulations are coming under the current administration.

The office inspection is in the regs I believe. Just an oddity like the fact that if yo give up your C&R, you do not have to turn in your bound book.

As to gun shows, I know several people who have C&Rs and buy and sell (on the dealer scale) C&R weapons.

"I won't argue this either way, but you can be sure that crackdowns and tightening of regulations are coming under the current administration."

The stepped up audits began well over a year ago, maybe two. Every gun shop in town went through them. They started with C&Rs last Summer.

About two years ago they busted a C&R holder who was selling Glocks and various other non-C&R firearms at the Reno show.

There was also a local shop owner who narrowly missed a prison term. They locked the doors and yanked his license within 2 hours of beginning the audit. He had been in business since the 70's.

Interesting.

All the times you mention as to the start of the increased enforcement was during Bush's tenure. (Except for the gun shop owner for whom no date was given.)

I don't think this is a specific political move, never has been.

The gov't doesn't like you and me owning guns, its cut and dry. (goes back to the rich / those in power feeling that you are protected by police and the military)

Lots of "rights' Have been modified and taken away the last 10 years, this is just another one that is being eroded.


Ed

For those of you who have never had the privilege of stopping by Hugh's house... let me say this... He and Minta are some fine folks who are as hospitable as the day is long.

Two weekends ago I had the disctinct pleasure of visiting with them overnight... and seeing Hugh's collection in person was also a privilege... Those BBQ guns in particular-- I will post a couple of photos soon about my visit.

The only snag I had on my way was FINDING the place :eek:. It was after dark when I arrived, and the road is not well marked at all. Finding it in the daylight wouldn't be much easier! Their house is far enough from the road that the agent may even give up!

Hugh- my suggestion is to make the appointment to see you after the sun has gone down and let them try and find your driveway! You may never even hear from them again! :D:roflmao:

Let us know how things go!

"Except for the gun shop owner for whom no date was given."

Charlie,

About 2 1/2 years ago. Shortly after, they were auditing all of the shops in this area. I worked in the shop for the new owners for about a year and a half. I left in late Nov.'08.


Ron

Last year (under Bush) ATF did compliance exams on most, if not all, of the 01 dealers in the Pittsburg area. I know 3 people who were visited.

And people say bush was pro-gun.

The BATFE is a federal bureaucracy that must practice self preservation or someday it will cease to exist (we can only hope)... As long as they stay within the law, and their own regulations, I doubt any President, including Bush, and the present one, would have much to say about their operations. When they step OUTSIDE the law, and their own regulations is when they get into trouble.

C&R inspections are within the law. If you are not violating the law, are respectful of the agent doing his sworn duty, the inspection should be short and sweet. IF the law allows for an inspection of your bound book at THEIR office, that is the best way to maintain the privacy of your home, and collection...make arrangements to do it there, at YOUR convenience, not theirs.

If you read the regulations, it says you can bring your bound Book AND your guns....


So, you might want to check with the agent ahead of time; many times the office is in a federal building.

Ed

Post Inspection Report
 

The agent was very polite when he called. I asked if he would prefer me to come to his office, but he said if I had very many guns, it would be better for him to come to my house. We scheudled the appointment at my convience.

Well, I can sleep easy tonight, everything went smoothly.

I renewed my C&R license in June and one of the questions on the renewal form is: "How many transactions have you recorded in the past three years?" I was truthful and answered 50. That raised a red flag and was what precipitated my "compliance inspection". They were checking to see if I was "dealing in firearms on my C&R license".

The agent said that they normally do not "fool with" C&R licensees, and I was the first one he was aware of that had been checked in the Houston area. All due to my being honest about my recorded transactions. When I explained that my large volume was due to a change in collector interest, and that had I sold most of my large Luger collection to buy Colt Single Actions and engraved pistols, he was very understanding, and said that it looked like a legitimate reason to him.

The Agents official title is: "Industry Operations Investigator". He was very nice, polite and co-orperative. I had layed out my C&R guns on the coffee table, and as I picked one up and called out the SN, he looked it up in the book and checked it off. After we had accounted for the guns, he looked over the recorded entries and gave them a passing grade. And, apparantly a loose leaf notebook type of "bound book" is ok, as he made no comment about mine. The inspection took about two hours, as we visited and had coffee, it was a very cordial meeting.

OUTSTANDING!!

My two dealings were when I had my 01 for a short period of time, and both folks were very nice.


Ed

Surprised. Combining disposition and acquisition, I would think 50 transactions being very "normal" in 36 months.

No?

I don't feel I am very active on guns. But.... this alert line now worries me :crying:

50 guns in 36 months could be a high number on a C&R license.

A loose leaf notebook type of "bound book" is ok as I hav used such for almost 30 years in connection with an 01 license and a C&R license. I had two compaince exams in the last 3 years on the 01 license and no comment was made about my loose leaf notebook type of "bound book".

Here is a true story I thought I should share with you:

In a small town a hardware store was combined with a convenience store and gas station. The hardware store also sold guns.

In addition to the owner, there was a lady about 70 to 75 years old who worked in the hardware store. I'll call her Betty and the owner Bob. (Not their real names.)

One day two jovial fellows came into the hardware store. One jokingly remarked that he probably should not even be in the hardware store since he had been convicted of a domestic violence crime, and was therefore not even allowed to buy a gun. I'll call him Jack. (Not his real name.) But his partner apparently did not have any legal problems with gun ownership, and he was interested in all kinds of guns. I'll call him Jim, and of course this is not his real name either. This pair becames friends with Betty, and she always showed them any gun they wanted to see in the counter, etc.

After a few weeks, Jim began buying and/or ordering guns and Betty always did the proper background checks, got all the forms filled out, etc. Jim always paid for his guns in cash. After many months of this, one day Jim and Jack came in to pick up a gun that Jim had ordered. And Jim discovered that he was $10.00 short in what he needed to pay for the gun. So he looked over at his good buddy Jack and asked him if he could loan him $10.00 until he could pay him back. Jack jokingly complied, pulled a $10 bill out of his wallet and gave it to Jim so he could pay for his gun.

This happened several other times over about a year, and Betty thought nothing of it.

However, one day the Bureau of ATF & Explosives raided the store and took Betty and the owner Bob both away in handcuffs.

Why?

Because Betty's two "friends" were actually ATF agents, and in allowing Jack to give Jim $10.00 so he could pay for his legally acquired handgun, she had actually witnessed a "strawman purchase." A "stawman purchase" exists when one person gives another person the money to buy a gun. Sound ridiculous?

Well, it did not sound ridiculous to the anti-gun judge who heard the case. He gave Betty one year in federal prison, and he gave Bob a year and a day in prison since he was the owner of the place.

So they both went to prison, even though the required background criminal checks had been completed, even though all the forms had been filled out, and even though their records were in order. Betty had been duped into allowing a strawman purchase by the two ATF agents.

Bob lost everything. The hardware store, convenience store and the gas station all had to be closed. Betty went into a depression, and when she was released from prison sold her house and left the state.

I know both of these people personally. While Bob was in prison, I wrote letters to him just to help him through the ordeal. In one of his letters to me, he wrote: "I can't believe this is happening to me in America."

Mauser720 - Ron

There was a time , early 80s to late 90s, that the ATF was bordering on Gestapo tactics, some close to entrapment.

In the late 80s a local shop owner was routed out of bed at 4 am by a phone call from ATF Agents and ordered to open his shop for inspection. They literally up-ended his storeroom and office. After they had finished. They told him that they were acting on a tip from one of his customers that he was dealing drugs out of his shop.

The customer in question was a locally well know paranoid "Fringer" who was pissed off because the owner hadn't given him a bigger discount on a bulk ammo order. Fortunately he has since moved on to a "much warmer" localle. Much to the relief of his neighbors and the community.

They have since changed their tactics and methods. Most everyone that I know of, who has dealt with them recently, said they were very pleasant and at times, forgiving of minor infractions.

Glad to hear the inspection went well. Often wondered about how those were carried out.

- WOT

Great news Hugh! I knew you had your stuff together... Minta told me so! :D

Anybody remember "Ruby Ridge" some years back?

John, maybe you could hold back on a gun purchase and spring for a GPS?

Aaron, I HAD a GPS with me, unfortunately, Hugh's house has NO ADDRESS to input... his snail mail goes to a PO BOX! The GPS only got me as far as DEVERS...

If you didn't know that Hugh's place was at the end of the road, you would never believe that you had the correct driveway... If any of you ever go there, make sure you take a flare gun, a flashlight, suvival food, and a large caliber handgun to protect yourself if you break down half way to his place... A satellite phone might also be a good idea... my cell phone had only half a bar of signal while I was at their house. :D

?
 

Where in the reg's does it say "what information must be recorded" for a C&R Lic. entry?

Thanks.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1...troduction.pdf

Sec. 478.125

50/36=1.38 per month, that some kind of track record for buying/selling. This is another reason of why I gave up my C&R. I had it for 10+years and finally came to the conclusion it was none of their business how many I acquired/disposed of. I now use a dealer for anything through the mail for $15 per transfer. Well worth it to me for someone else to have the headache of inspections.

These inspections are,as Forrest Gump would say, like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.