german youth luger
 

I have recently inherited a ww2 luger. It is an S/42dated 1937 over the chamber with all matching numbers (including the clip and grip panels)and a german youth insignia on the right grip panel. The gun show only a little holster wear. Mostly on the end of the barrel. The follower in the mag has very little sign of wear and there is still blueing inside the chamber and excelent bore. This leads me to belive it has not been fired much. My father bought this from a guy that brought it back from ww2. My question is could this gun have been issued to a german youth leader? I would like to find out if this is a rare piece as my late father believed or is it just common S/42.

Any information is greatly appreciated.


Sidhartha

Re: german youth luger
 

Your Luger is probably the product of some GI "Trench Art" enhancement. The only weapons issued by the NSDAP to party officials, and a HJ Leader would *definately* be a party official, were Walther PP and PPK, "Der Ehren waffen der NSDAP"(The honor weapon of the NSDAP). This has been extensively researched and documented in the NAPCA publication, AUTOMAG.


There are numerous period photographs of Party officials wearing these as side arms and many pieces extant with have been engraved or etched with Party organizational logos/insignias. Additionally, there are copies of Party documents which have survived that prescribe the pistols, manner and occasion for wearing, etc, etc.


If you decide you wish to swim in this pond, CAVEAT EMPTOR: This field is full of very well done fakes, so if you do not know Z'ackly what you are doing, get competent advice from someone who knows this highly specialized field.

Re: german youth luger
 

I bought a Luger from Ralph with the NASDAP emblem in the right grip panel. He believed it to be factory applied and a Gestapo gun. While there is no documentation on this, it came out of a very advanced collection. At any rate, I love it!


Tim

GI Modification
 

Typical of what the GI's did to these guns after the war.


First, you people have to remember that a gun marked P08 or P38 was REICH PROPERTY...It was a court marshal offense to personalize them. [like putting any name/numbers/unit/SS/ or any other crap on them] And, therefore, you have to take a look at any K98-P08-P38 or other issue gun with such B___S___ on them for what they are...... Seller enhancements


They [GIs] got badges/medals/eagles/etc and [usually] punched holes into the holster flap and installed it...after scratching their name in the flap with a knife. others had them put into the grip panels.


The Letter followed by 4 numbers you often see scratched on the holster flap was the GI's LAUNDRY MARK....as 'S2232' would be the first letter of his last name plus the last 4 digits of his serial number.


For a pack of Camels, the German civilians would plate these guns, too. [you had to supply a piece of silver for the plating] Many were not even taken apart..just the 3 major parts were stripped and plated.. [No, Virginia, they are not Hitler presentation guns and there really is a Santa Claus!]


The Civilians were not supposed to possess guns but no one cared if they were doing something...like engraving-plating-making grips+shoulder holsters for a GI.

NSDAP
 

If it was not a Banner gun, then you were the victim on that purchase. Civilians could not acquire issued weapons..Period. and, the NSDAP were civilians!

Re: NSDAP
 

My apologies! It is not a Gestapo Gun, I was confused and typed too fast. It is an s/42 gun,dated. It is rightous, and I trust Ralph's judgement. My mistake. As it has been said, "Anything, litterally, could happen in Germany at that time"


Tim

Re: german youth luger
 

Their ain't no easter bunny and NSDAP party guns are well documented. Believe what you wish, its a free country.

Re: GI Modification
 

Both my father and father in law were there. My father during the war and Father in law as a member of the constabulary occupying Germany.


What you have said is 100% consistent with their stories to me.


In fact, my father in law had several US weapons-Army Riot guns, thet were "Found on Post" converted to long barrel shotguns and restocked by German gunsmiths. he had to order the barrels from the USA (Stoeger) and the german did the stock work and barrel conversion/rebluing. The US ordinance markings were ground off. All was done for 2 packs of cigarettes. I restored one of these to original configuration several years ago and gave it to my son. The restoration cost considerably more than two packs of smokes.


According to both of these old vets, Germans were forbidden to possess ANY weapon, so GIs took military stuff, medieval swords, cross bows, museum pieces...It sucks to lose a war.


Tom

Re: GI Modification
 

Here again your comments are on target with what I have found to be the case, except one. I have found a fair amount of evidence most of it ancedotal, that officers were allowed to purchase military contract pistols....including Lugers. This was their choice, but seems to have been almost a standard practice in pre WWII Germany (and Imperial). These priviate purchases could be either from commercial or made available military contract. IF anyone has solid evidence that this is absolutly incorrect, I would be very interested in seeing it. By the way, I believe that this situation has little to do with various pins and insignia being put into/on pistol grips. It was never done at the factory or depot and I would say very rarely if ever by the German owner , whether he owned the pistol or was signed for on issue. In other words I agree with you that GI's went rampant doctoring up Lugers and everything they captured.

Re: german youth luger
 

Boy!, some of us got up on the wrong side of the old respect/politeness bed this morning. I was in no way saying that the gun was mis-represented by my friend Ralph Shattuck. It is what it is, a neat virtually mint gun. I'd put a picture on the website but it just seems to "call the vultures" as in other members postings. Let's just pull the reigns in a little here! This website is getting a little to pretentious and may scare the new comers to the collection of Lugers off. Maby "I" need to take a break from posting. I certainly didn't want to create an arguement. Just remember, that not all sellers are out to fleece people, just make an honest living. The old addage rings true in collecting: "My stuff is allways valuble, and everyone elses stuff is overpriced and incorrect". Jeeze!!!!

Please do post a photo of your new Luger Tim
 

There are those of us that love to see quality photos of good Lugers whether they are considered "doctored" or not!


Thanks,


John

KRAUT OFFICERS
 

Yes...they and certain civilians could buy guns ...but, at the proper outlets and with a permit. The Mod HP was made for that purpose as anything marked P.38 or P.08 were the same as our 'GOVERNMENT PROPERTY" marks.


The PP and PPk were the most desireable. The outlets usually had a supply of other pistols like the CZ27-French .32s-etc. I am told you had to know someone to get a Walther.

Re: german youth luger
 

Yes Shadow---I agree with you. From time to time a think I will never look at the forum again. I am reluctant to describe any thing I have for fear the vultures will pick its bones---no matter if I could prove beyond a "shadow of a doubt" that god sent it to me. Seems like some people thrive on looking for so called fakes of things that they will never own and probably couldn't buy if it was original and at dirt cheap price. I think you have an interesting piece. I have a byf 42 that has dice inlaid[the pair had to be cut] like a #11 domino in one grip. It is interesting and fun to wonder who did it. Anyone know if Hitler gave up shooting craps----may these were his? 1 2 3 Jump on it.

Re: Please do post a photo of your new Luger Tim
 

I agree with John, I would love to see photos of your pistol!!!!!


Marvin

Do you mean GERMAN officers? (EOM)
 

Re: GI Modification
 

Tom,


My dad arrived in Europe at the end of the war so he was not in combat with Germany, but while there, he did have a German girlfriend somewhere in Bavaria, as he talked about how much he loved the Black Forest area and Munich. Anyway, on with my story; his girlfriend gave him a Russian Nagant revolver and a Tokarev, both with holsters, which her brother had brought back from the Eastern Front when on leave one time. Since German Citizens were not allowed to own any weapons in late 1945, she was scared that she or other family members would be jailed if cought with having these pistols. She did not know if her brother was alive, or captured, but decided to give him the pistols. The holster for the Tokarev had the belt loops modified to the German style, so I would assume the brother had worn the pistol during the time before they were brought home. This was a bit of luck he had bringing them to the US when returned as GIs were not allowed to bring them without paperwork and dad had to sneak into the US. I wish now he had gotten some paperwork on them.


Marvin

Re: german youth luger
 

Right On Tim, I agree with you.

Re: german youth luger
 

A couple of years ago a 1939 dated Krieghoff came out of the woodwork and changed hands several times at an inflated price. When it was finally examined by more than one knowledgeable Krieghoff collector it was identified as a fake. Would the Luger collecting community have been better served if these knowledgeable collectors had just let it go on it's merry way, or was it their responsibility as a vulture to identify it as a fake to try and prevent other less knowledgeable collectors from buying a dud.

Re: KRAUT OFFICERS
 

I would like Mr. Canney to relate the story, as best he can recall it, he was told by "Ralph" when he was sold the pistol. I am very interested to hear what he was told. Did someone identify this "Ralph" more specifically?

Thanks.


I just looked inside a new luger photo book last weekend in Virginia and was surprised to see a chromed luger with claims that legit chrome lugers may exist. No claim was made the photographed luger was chromed at the factory (it did not look like a quality job but looked like a typical post-war chrome-job). The carefully made statements ended with a suggestion that a documented legit chrome luger is a valuable prize--of course, no known legit chrome lugers have been validated but that was not mentioned in the text.


Methinks the luger field could use some serious compilation of evidence and information regarding luger identification. World of Lugers and Luges at Random are rather dated, incomplete and in need of correction. Still's books are good for the militaries. Perhaps we should compile a new, updated reference.

Re: KRAUT OFFICERS
 

David, Tim states in a previous post that Ralph is Ralph Shattuck. I would wish we could stay away from negative references to other nationalities. I am very much against political correctness but I personally find the use of the offensive negative slurs on others a throwback to an abhorrent past that we should bring our enlightned selves to rise above. It is the only gentlemanly thing to do and I am sure the use of such words does not encourage the participation of our European friends and fellow collectors.It only brings bad feelings for those it is intended to hurt and probably makes more than myself ashamed to participate in a forum that would either encourage or tolorate such behavior. While this may have been an oversight on the part of this shadow fellow I find it's use to be, no matter what the intent, to be unseemly. Jerry Burney

Re: KRAUT OFFICERS
 

I agree wholeheartedly! We (myself included in this group), tend to be very negative, especially when it comes to others and their property. Ralph is indeed my friend Ralph Shattuck. As I stated in a previous thread, ANYTHING WAS POSSIBLE AND PROBABLE IN THE FORMER GERMANY. It does'nt make EVERTHING bad or negative! Yes the factory could indeed have placed an insignia in a set of grips without being killed for treason. GI's had allot more on their minds than how someone else 80 years later would judge their war trophies. I like capture papers w/ a gun. Some don't. They can choose not to buy guns with capture papers or even at their discretion throw them in the garbage. Ralph is if nothing else a TOP AUTHORITY on Lugers. I trust him and will continue to solicit his advice when warranted. You don't have to. Until ol' Georg or August Weise comes back to life, it's the best we got!


Best Regards, (I mean it)


Tim

Re: KRAUT OFFICERS
 

I know some old men who were shot at by Krauts----the term certainly does not offend them.

Re: Small Minds
 

Art, While I do not know your history because you have no profile I will take the liberty to let you know a little of mine. I spent two tours with the 173rd Airborne as a grunt infantryman in the central highlands. I saw things there that have driven men insane. There were many common euphamisms used then and even now that were intended to dehumanize the enemy and make killing him easier on the mind. That is similar to the use of the derogotory term used for Germans.

That a person 55 years later would stoop to this bull**** who has not been directly involved in the conflict and has never had a shot fired in anger come his way, is infantile to say the least and totally uncalled for.

In addition, my Father was with the 8th Army Air Forces and shot down while bombing Germany and spent some years in a German POW camp. I cannot remember over the last 50 years of my life him ever having anything but respect for the people who treated him humanely and with as much care as the circumstances would allow. Granted while not everyone in the European theater was treated humanely there were then and certainly now many Germans who did not agree with the Nazi Party.

Why must we continue with the negative name calling, just because you know some old men who were shot at? I don't think that gives you the right to offend any German who is interested enough to log onto the Luger Forum.

I will ask one more time and then I will have said my piece. Why the use of offensive inflamatory comments? Jerry Burney

Re: Small Minds
 

I supose one could be offended by the term small minds since it appears to be directed at a particular person. To me the word KRAUT is a term long associated with WWII history and is just a figure of speach with no disrespect intended to anyone. Is this a Luger forum or a Political forum for narrow minds? Let's talk about Lugers here and stop the picky crap and continuous jumping on every little thing. Some of the guys that I know off line are afraid to ask serious questions or make a comment because the chosen few eat them up. I spent many years in state government, attended repeated sensitivity training and wrote many affirmative action plans. Maybe I missed something. In 25 years no one ever mentioned that the word kraut was offensive. My point was Jerry----don't jump on guys here. If you don't like the word---then pretend you didn't see it. The word was not directed at you. To whom were you refering as small minds? Probably me, but so what! I would rather talk about Lugers. I am not offended by the small minds words but it does bother me that you kind of made it personal.

Re: Give and take
 

Art, I apologize if you have taken this personally and that would seem to be an antithesis to what I am trying to point out here. I have heard this anti-European rhetoric on the Forum before and it is one of the things that makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.

It is my love and interest to talk about Lugers on this great Luger Forum and I think you can see from my posts I do almost exclusively that. However I am wont to call a spade a spade when the occasion calls for it and please do not take my comment of "small minds" to heart personally. It refers to anyone who wants to claim it. All I am saying is the World is hard enough as it is why make others miserable. As for the word Kraut do you mean to say this is an affectionate term for the German people? If you do not think it is offensive, is it perhaps descriptive? Somehow I think something is missing here. Jerry Burney

Re: Give and take (EOM)
 

KRAUT
 

The shadow.......and all his forebearers are KRAUTS!


so, what is the big deal....lighten up, you guys.

OK... Enough with the "KRAUT" thing...
 

this topic is "Off Topic" and inflammatory. The arguement that a word is just a figure of speech, is in itself highly subjective, it's a figure of speech to the speaker, but something else entirely to a listener. The word "Kraut" and the word "Nigger" belong in the same class of words as far as I'm concerned and there is no place for them here. So let's drop that part of the thread and get back on topic, or I will kill the thread.


Dok (Webmaster)

Do any of you remember...
 

sidhartha (a new poster) asked a question about his Luger before you all went off on a tangent. A return to him might be in order...


Dok

Re: OK... Enough with the "KRAUT" thing...
 

Sounds good to me!

Re: My apologies
 

Gentlemen, I want to apologize for anything I said that may have seemed personal. I know no one that is a regular on the forum that I would sling arrows at. It is certainly not my intention to anger those whom I wish to associate with. Thanks for the offline support. Again my apologies, especially to Art Buchanan. Jerry Burney

Re: My apologies
 

Accepted.

Re: OK... Enough with the "KRAUT" thing...
 

Acck! I haven't checked this messageboard in awhile, and the first thing I see is this thread... I don't like the word 'kraut' (yes, i'm german). Also, I don't like the term "YANK" either. Ya know, when people from UK, or Australia call us Americans that. Cause, I'm from Georgia and all

Re: OK... Enough with the "KRAUT" thing...
 

Thanks, Dok !

Juergen from Germany

Re: OK... Enough with the "KRAUT" thing...
 

Wombat:


There is no such word as "Yank" in Georgia.

(see "Damyank")

Jim