DWM Commercial 1911-1913 (?)
 

Starting with the grips. One is marked with a #5 and the other a #3. The gun serial ends in #51. And if you look at the close-up it almost loos like #51 on grip, but I think this #1 is actually just the wood grain.

Keep this in mind when reviewing the next photos, where #3 and # 5 are stamped on the frame -where the reciever and barrel mate with the frame.

Here is what I was talking about: What do the #3 and #5 mean? What about the P?

photo of gun
 

Look at the one without the grips. That is as far open as the toggle will stay. I con't think it has a hold open.......and if it does it is not working properly.

Frame Stamps
 

Anyone know what these mean?

Photo 1: P RN
Photo 2: E on left and the P RN on the Right
Photo 3: N stamped over an R?
Photo 4: close-up of photo 3
Photo 5: inside frame looks like H

The numbers and the "P" in the frame well are just inspector's marks. Can't tell if it has a hold open or not, would have to see a photo of the top of the frame without the receiver. If it has a hold open, the toggle will not stay back unless there is an empty magazine in the gun. Being an '08 commercial, chances are pretty good that it doesn't have a hold open. Pretty nice looking gun.

I posted my reply before you added the other photos. All of those other marks are also just inspector marks and there is no key to who or what they represent.

Barrel and Receiver underside
 

you can see the halos on the serial number. On the receiver underside there are three letters above the raised portion with#51. Looks like C Z and either F or faint P; on the left of the 51 a greek lower case a (?); and below another Z (?)

Anyone know what these mean?

up close of greek letter (?) and more photos and Lazy c/n

what is the 0 near the trigger mean; A P 1 near the #51 in the fourth photo of the toggle underside

Inside the side place appers to be the #3 similar to that on the grip and inside the frame recess where the receiver fits on top.

Extractor and Front Site
 

Check out the cool mark on the front site. What is it?

No serial # on first mag

On inside letter markings, same answer as before. They are inspector markings. It just means that some inspector (unknown) evaluated some aspect of construction and placed his stamp to indicate that he had looked at it and it was satisfactory.

Good photos, and it is still a nice looking gun. :)

How about a shot of the top of the frame to see if it has a hold open?

very nice photos. I always call them "makers" marks, i.e. like Ron said, parts was made, and checked by someone (could be an inspector, could be a foreman or lead worker in that area).

somethings we'll just never know for sure ;)



Also, although there "could" ber rhyme or reason for some markings i.e. the #3 or #5, mostly likely not if they aren't the last two of the serial number....

Also, although there "could" ber rhyme or reason for some markings i.e. the #3 or #5, mostly likely not if they aren't the last two of the serial number....


Yeah - I thought it was cool how #3 and #5 are on the frame where the receiver fits and also appear to be on grips.


Are the grips walnut? They seem a littler light in color, but I saw somewhere on a post that European Walnut can be lighter than the American species.

sometimes they are beech

Uh, I'm a Luger newby too but don't you have to have a magazine in the pistol to lock the toggle back?

The letters are workerstamps. The reason for stamping such letters was that the DWM in this case wont to know who of the workers was working on the part of the gun. If there would have been some more problems with the (Leerenhaltigkeit in German) same parts on several Lugers they could find out, who of the workers made the problems.
I would be able to give more informations about it but because of my poor English I´m missing the right words. But I hope you will know what I mean.
Regards Klaus

Klaus - Your English is excellent; your meaning is clear. If a problem area on a number of pistols was found to be caused by a single worker, what would be done with the affected parts???

You did just fine, Klaus. Better than most of us would do in German.

FN

Klaus
If I had your luger knowledge I wouldn't care if I was speaking in an alien tongue. You do great. Bill

I think this is the first 5-digit commercial serial w/o letter that I've seen...

Is that odd??? (The serial, I mean...not my lack of seeing)... :D

Thanks everyone for the answers. You will have to excuse my lack of luger knowledge. I am newbie, and fortuantely for me there is a wealth of information on this forum.


It does not hold open with or without the mag. I'm going to get a photo of the top of the frame as Ron suggested. I don't think it has one, but I'm still unsure being new to lugers.

Postino - should it have a letter as part of the serial #?

Klaus- this is the gun that came in the holster we discussed in the holster thread. I appreciate your input. I agree with the others that your English is just fine. We have our own form/style of English where I come from as well.

you never see a five digit with a suffix letter (a few exceptions, my OPM police luger is an example); but commercial didn't come with suffix's.


Ed

Ed - You're saying that 5-digit commercial didn't come with suffix, correct??? (My 4-digit commercial DWM does have suffix)... :confused:

Pistino,
Commercials were numbered starting with #1 to #92000 with no suffix. Then they switched to the military style (not placement) of numbering begining at 2000i... the equivalent of 92000.

I may thank you all for the nice words.
Postino, the affected parts had to be replaced.

For Bill Lyon ``-.'#+**>!&%)))%´°^^Êmµm= a big thanks of an alien

Klaus & Others
 

Could post #6 last three photos of barrel/reciever be Nazi Z's that were added later. See on both sides of the #51?

Or are these marks part of the original marks when the gun was manufactured 1911-1913?

What is the estimated manufactured date based on the serial #?

...But what happened to the defective parts??? :confused:

(I'm assuming the worker was shot)... :D

They are original marks, there is no Nazi connection. It is hard to say when it was manufactured, but assuming an even production rate would place it toward the end of 1911.

Thanks Ron - that goes along with the Holster which is:

AWM-3-11

Here is a photo borrowed from another thread that will identify the location of the holdopen device. If yours doesn't have this part, it will not remain open after the last shot.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...9&d=1242315047

John and Ron -

I'm almost certain it does not have the hold open. I'm going to post some photos to confirm. There is not evidence on the right side above the trigger either.

I don't see a hold-open and no evidence of rework pin above the trigger

Pistol, have you ever heard of the Landau list? In 1914 all P08 should get the hold open and a new front size. All Prussian P08 got both, most of the P08 of the kingdom of Württemberg but none of the Bavarian Army. At that time the Great War started. I can´t say what happened with the P08 of Saxony.
The Bavarian Artillery depots had to enumerate all the P08 and send the list to the royal Bavarian Feldzeugmeisterei. (By the way: is there anyone who could translate if I would write in German? Often I´m missing the right words and so I do not write all that what I would write if I would write in German- terrible English- I know.) One of these lists is the (Bavarian) Landau list. The members of Stills forum will remember that I found five Lugers with the regiment marks on the list. On this list are enumerated some more than 2500 Lugers. AND NOW- there are many commercial Lugers listed which belonged to the officers of the Bavarian regiments of the Landau Artillery depot.
The number of your gun is 58739- listed there are in the Landau list for example following numbers which are very close to your pistol: 58735 (only 4 numbers of your gun); 58763, 58806, 58810, 58813, 58828 and 58851 (and there are many more).
I also picked up and observed here in Germany that it was the practice that the officers, who must pay for their own P08 with their own money, got Luger of the commercial production. It was the absolute exception if they got an Imperial accepted Luger.
Without any question was your Luger bought by a Bavarian officer.
I hope that you appreciate this information.

Best regards Klaus

Klaus -
I very much appreciate your information and input as always. Klaus if you have much more info that is easier for you to type in German, please feel free do so. I can copy and paste your post, and then hit translate to English in a word document. I think(?)

Klaus-
Do you recall discussing the AWM 3-11 holster that came with this gun in the holster forum? You told me it was Bavarian and we discussed the regiments stamped on the holster. The german that submitted this gun said he was the Oberbürgermeister von München.

Please see the thread where you posted the photo of your grandfather in the holster thread.This is thread where we discussed the regiments.

Also, I found out that there was a .22 barell with this gun. Did the .22 barrel come later during the 1930-1940's, or were there .22 barrels during Imperial times?

Pistol, the Selbstladeeinstecklauf (S.E.L) in cal. 22 for the P08 was introduced on the 1. Oktober 1932 in the Army and apportioned by the "supply place" (Nachschubverbindungsstelle) Spandau. The older subcalibrebarrels in 4mm went back to the arsenals Spandau, Kassel and Königsberg.
The large wooden boxes were made until 1934 when the R.G. 34 (Reinigungsgerät 34) replaced the cleaning rods in cal. 22. Then came the small wooden boxes.

I found the thread with the holster.
Both, the 2. and the 16. Bavarian Inf. Reg. build the 2. Bavarian Infanterie Brigarde. It was common that regiments of an Inf. Brig. gave parts of theit equipment if an reserve regiment was made (terrible English again). That´s the thing with the holster.

The names of the Oberbürgermeister could be found in the regiments histories under following conditions: if they died in action or were woundet; if they got a honor (Eiserne Kreuz erster oder zweiter Klasse). I´m sure das the former owner of the P08 was an officer. So you would find his name on several pages of the regiment history.

I hope I could answer your question.

Best regards Klaus

Klaus
 

Hey Klaus -
Is my gun on the Landau list? I saw in another post where you said the holsters were dyed black in 1915. Why did they have to be blacked in1915?

Pistol,
your P08 is not at the Landau list. Because of the unit stamps on the flap of the holster it is not possible. The 16. Inf. Regiment and the 2. Reserve Inf. Regiment were part of the 1. Bavarian Armycorps with it´s Artilleriedepots in Augsburg and München.
Landau was with Germersheim and Würzburg the Artilleriedepot of the 2. Bavarian Armycorps.

The order for dyed black the holsters don´t tell us the reason for it- sorry but I`m not able to answer your question.

I tried to find out the Regiment of Fiehler- I wasn´t able. If I would like to know it I would buy the regiment history of the 2. Bavarian Res. Inf. Reg. and if I couldn´t find him there I would try it with the 16. Bavarian Inf. Reg.

Regards Klaus

- So, my gun is not on the Landau becasue it went to a regiment that was part of Ist Bavarian Army Corps.

The other lugers with similar serial numbers 58763, 58806, 58810, 58813, 58828 and 58735 were sent to regiments that were part of the 2nd Bavarian Army Corps.

Therefore, the guns were made around the same time (similar serial numbers), but were sent to different regiments with different artilleriedepots.

Is there a list for Artilleriedepots in Augsburg and München?

- So, about the black dye holsters. It is known that there was an order in 1915 to dye them black, but the reason for the black dye is unknown. Was the order for all holsters to be dyed black, or only for certain regiments? Was the order given by the commander? Does the fact that the holster was dyed black in 1915 indicate it was still being used by an active soldier at the time?


- "I would buy the regiment history of the 2. Bavarian Res. Inf. Reg. and if I couldn´t find him there I would try it with the 16. Bavarian Inf. Reg."

Where can I buy?




Thanks again Klaus.

Pistol,
um auf Ihre Frage eine Antwort geben zu können, muss ich etwas weiter ausholen und erlaube mir, das in Deutsch zu versuchen. Leider muss ich davon ausgehen, dass die Übersetzung, die ich nicht einmal kontrollieren kann, mit Fehlern behaftet sein wird. Mir fehlt einfach das richtige Gefühl für den Gebrauch der englischen Sprache.

Die besagte Landauer Liste entstand infolge der Verfügung des Allgemeinen Kriegsdepartments des Preußischen Kriegsministeriums vom 6. Mai 1913, die den Einbau des Kammerfangs und den Austausch des Korns, zum Erreichen der einheitlichen Visierschussweite von 50 m, vorsah.
Das Königreich Bayern entschied sich durch Verfügung des bayrischen Kriegsministeriums vom 2. März 1914 erst 10 Monate später zu dem gleichen Schritt; wie wir wissen zu spät, da am 1. September der 1. Weltkrieg ausbrach. Die Königreiche Sachsen und Württemberg waren hier wohl schneller mit ihrer Entscheidung; zumindest für Württemberg ist gesichert, dass die Pistolen nur teilweise umgebaut werden konnten. Zur Sachlage in Sachsen fehlen mir leider jegliche Hinweise.

Um die Anzahl der zu ändernden P08 festzustellen, beauftragten die Artilleriedepots die ihnen zugewiesenen Regimenter mit der Auflistung der zu ändernden Pistolen. Die den einzelnen Königreichen gehörenden Pistolen sollten natürlich alle geändert werden. Bei den dem Privatbesitz der Offiziere zuzuordnenden Pistolen wurden den Besitzern die Möglichkeit der Änderung zum Preis von 2,80 Goldmark angeboten, entscheiden durften sie natürlich selbst, ob sie die Änderung durchführen lassen wollten oder nicht. 16500 Pistolen des Königreiches Bayern neben ca. 500 P08 aus privatem Besitz wurden letztendlich der Gewehrfabrik Erfurt zur Änderung mitgeteilt.
Es liegen im Kriegsarchiv des Bayrischen Hauptstaatsarchivs noch mehrere Listen der bayrischen Artilleriedepots vor, doch weisen diese im Gegensatz zur Auflistung aus Landau nur sehr vereinzelt die Waffennummern aus. Anders bei der Landauer Liste. Hier wird den einzelnen Regimentern und Ersatzformationen penibel die Waffennummer zugeordnet. Dieser Aufstellung können wir unter anderem entnehmen, dass der 1. Ersatz M.G. Kompagnie des II. Armeekorps 189 P08 zugeordnet waren, oder, dass den einzelnen Bataillonen des Bayrischen 18. Infanterie Regiments unterschiedliche Mengen an Ordonnanzpistolen zustanden (43, 44 und 45 Stück).
Die Sache hat aber einen Haken; die Waffenmeister der einzelnen Regimenter unterschieden weder nach Hersteller, noch nach dem Herstelldatum und vergaßen zudem oft den Buchstaben zur Seriennummer, so dass wir nur dann einen wirklichen Überblick erhalten, wenn wir anhand der Truppenstempel zweifelsfrei mehrere Pistolen den Auflistungen der Regimenter zuordnen können.

Und jetzt zu Ihrer zivilen DWM mit Nr. 58739 und der dazugehörigen Tasche. Wenn die Tasche nicht zur Pistole gehören sollte, sondern erst später, vielleicht durch einem Sammler, zur Pistole gekommen wäre, wäre es durchaus möglich, dass die Pistole an eine Formation, ein Regiment, des Kgl. Bay. 2. Armeekorps ausgegeben wurde, vielleicht sogar an ein Regiment, das zum Landauer Artilleriedepot zählte. Dann aber hätte sich der Offizier gegen die Ausführung der Änderung an seiner Pistole entschieden, da Sie auf der Liste nicht geführt wird.
Ich aber gehe davon aus, dass P08 und Tasche zusammengehören; nachweisen lässt sich das aber aus den oben geschilderten Gründen nicht.

Aber immerhin stärkt die in der Liste aufgeführte Seriennummer 58763 die Vermutung, dass Ihre Waffe an das 2. Bayrische Armeekorps geliefert wurde.

Nun noch zur Frage der geschwärzten Taschen.
In 1915 wird im Armee- Verordnungsblatt dreimal über Pflege und/oder Schwärzen berichtet. Es gab eine Allerhöchste Kabinettsorder vom 21. September, der schon am 27. September eine Anleitung zum Schwärzen der Taschen folgte. Solche Befehle galten in diesem Fall für die Bedarfsträger der Ordonnanzpistole und nicht für die mit der P08 ausgerüsteten Offiziere. Die Taschen der Offiziere bleiben bis in den 2. Weltkrieg hinein braun.

Ich würde in jedem Fall davon ausgehen, dass nachträglich geschwärzte Taschen mit Herstellung vor 1915 in 1915 auch in Gebrauch waren. Davon abgesehen möchte ich bemerken, dass wohl nur ein ganz geringer Prozentsatz der in 1915 getragenen Taschen auch geschwärzt wurde. Ich habe bestimmt noch mehr als 50 Taschen der Jahre 1909- 1911 und nur drei davon wurden nachträglich geschwärzt.
Wenn man selbst heute noch über die Schlachtfelder des 1. Weltkrieges geht, oder sich die zeitgenössischen Fotos davon ansieht, mag man sich vorstellen, dass den Soldaten damals im Grabenkrieg ganz andere Sorgen quälten, als ihre Schuhe und das andere Lederzeug zu schwärzen!

Zur letzten Frage: Ich kann von hier aus natürlich nicht beantworten, ob es in den Staaten möglich ist, die in Frage kommenden Regimentsgeschichten käuflich erwerben zu können, doch sollte es über einen längeren Zeitraum hin möglich sein, diese hier in Deutschland zu erwerben.
Da der Name des vermeintlichen Besitzers ja bekannt ist, sollte es selbst für jemanden ohne Deutschkenntnisse möglich sein, die Regimentsgeschichten nach dem Namen zu durchforsten.

Best regards Klaus