Broomhandle disaster....
 

Hello Gents,

I've given up on the Mauser 1896 Forum due to the spammers, and wondered if someone could guide me through the dreaded rocker coupling fiasco.

I just purchased a beautiful minty Conehammer from Simpson, and when I tried to field strip it, the frame will not slide off. (I know that the safety is OFF when the lever is UP).

Anyhoo, when pushing up on the latch, the lock frame assembly moves about a quarter-inch rearward, then stops...you can feel it coming into contact with something.

Any suggestions? A beautiful gun with matching stock and grips.

Cheers,

Bill

This may seem obvious, but have you removed the magazine base plate, mag spring and cartridge follower?

You got his best one in this wave. It's hard to predict what else will come out, but that's the best one so far. Hope it works out. It's a great piece to own! Congrat.

I have J. B. Wood's book with the "unlocking the rocker coupling" article in it...I was going to scan it...but that's already been done! :)

http://1896mauser.com/jam.htm

Note that the lockwork will come out about a quarter inch before it hits the rocker coupling...(#4, pg 125)...

I have not been able to put the coupling in backwards...It's not that I've tried...It's that in my two C96's, it's not possible to put it in reversed...It just won't go...

Your conehammer may be different...

The way that ground & bent screwdriver works is that you pull out the firing pin and the bolt stop and then remove the bolt...leave hammer cocked, safety off, pull the lockwork as far back as you can, and stick the screwdriver down the top behind the mag wall and the lock frame, and push against the spring plunger...That should (according to Wood) unload the rocker, and with some jiggling it can pull out...

I'm looking at mine and I see how it can be done, but I don't think I can take a good pic of it...

BTW: It takes a *lot* of pressure on that plunger to move the spring...

Mauser malady...........
 

Thanks guys....She has matching serial numbers on the grips(pristine),mag follower,firing pin retaining plate, underside of sight,frame....that I've been able to see so far. Stock is also numbered with minty screws and blued metal innards.

It appears that someone recently field stripped and oiled her, but put something in the wrong spot. Maybe you can't insert the rocker coupling incorrectly in a normal Broomie, but this IS a Conehammer! I have her sitting in a hand made mahogany case that includes the stock, DM marked clip and ammo. I just need the PUTZSTOCK cleaning rod, and I'm all set!

Beautiful finish on the old girl. I plan to keep it that way during and AFTER the "operation".

Cheers,

Bill

The factory cleaning rod is not cheap. There are fewer gun cases than cleaning rods, fewer cleaning rods than stocks, and fewer stock than guns (case < rod < stock < gun). But the gun and stock are the main body, others are optional IMO.

The rarest stuff is probably the manual.

SUCCESS......so far..........
 

Well.....I managed to get out the firing pin and retainer plate, then removed the bolt stop and recoil spring. But still, the bolt was reluctant to leave.

I tried the takedown latch again, and jiggled the slide while I tugged on the bolt.

VOILA! The bolt stopped at the hammer, so pulling back slightly on the hammer, I eased out the bolt. I took off the bits around the lock, and now I'm left with two dilemmas.....How to get the trigger subframe assembly out (it's not like the later pistols), but most importantly, I'm presently stumped as to how to remove the rocker coupling, as it sits in [I]front[I] of the mainspring and plunger!

Geez....every part is correctly serial numbered 5866.... except for the takedown latch (27) and the disconnector(just a crown). Lots of letters (and crowns) here and there, too.

While I'm pondering the rocker coupling and mainspring, what is a good solvent for removing dried grease. There's no rust, thankfully, and I'm fascinated that the rocker coupling is a very shiny yellow steel - must be from that Krupp guy:thumbup:
As for lubricant....Rust Check, or G96? Something a little heavier?

Thanks again gents, especially Postie.

Cheers,

Bill

Done? Have some pictures?

Did you get the lockframe assembly out of the pistol???

Here's a pic of the early lockwork...You can see the rocker coupling is in front of the plunger (unlike the later Mausers, which have the plunger in front of the coupling)...

This patent picture is not too far away from CH. There is no plunger, in its place, it's a spring plug. It's extremely hard to disassemble the coupling out even when the lock work is taken out of the frame. My way was pushing the hammer pivot out to release the hammer and main spring, then it's easy to take the coupling out. But obviously that does not work when the lock work is in the frame.

Is it still in the frame?

JBW's method must be revised on CH -- there is no plunger pretruding out of the lock work in the front, so there is nothing that you can push in from the front, as shown on JBW's article.

It can be put in, then there must be a way to take it out. Somehow you have to hold the main spring back so it does push the coupling..... how about just pushing the plug backwards using a tool.....

I use cheap spray carb cleaner. It's basically spray acetone. I haven't found anything that cuts grease, oil, or cosmoline better and it won't harm the finish.
And it's like $1.69 a can at Walmart. :D

We're gettin' there......
 

Thanks for the diagramme, Postie, and your comments, Alvin.

The only problem with drifting out the sear spring, is trying to get it back in for reassembly! That mainspring is one stiff critter. It would put Viagra to shame:p.

Was there a tool....something fork-shaped......that would insert between the mainspring "cap" and rocker, so that by applying rearward pressure, the rocker would slip away?
Still thinking about that.

As for solvent, perhaps pure mineral spirits to remove the dried gummy residue, then Hoppes "Blast and Clean" for good measure, prior to oiling. I still like Rust Check, or G96.....but do I need a lubricant with higher viscosity?

I'll post some pics soon. Thanks for yours, Alvin.

Cheers,

Bill

Oh yes.....The lock is out of the frame. Just needed some TLC and swear words:thumbup:.

The Scottish in me thanks you, Roland.....Carb cleaner sounds good, too.


Cheers,

Bill

Great! That's the hardest part. Put the thing back is easier than stripping it. No fixed way, any way works without cause damage is a good way.

Gun oil like "Hoppe's 9" would wash away dried grease. I apply "RIG Universal Grease" inside the gun, and applies "Renaissance Wax" outside. A little bit "Hoppe's 9" can play wax solvant role as well, so the surface does not appear very dry. Works well for me. No oil of any kind on wood grip. If you plan to shoot it, then no wax or grease. This one is a little bit too nice to shoot though.

Weird enough, the disconnector and TD latch on Standard CH is unnumbered. But that's correct.

....Unless I can find a safe way to remove the rocker and trigger assembly, I may just soak her to get rid of the old grease and crud, dry her out and oil her. And no, I won't shoot her. I'll buy a clunker to "fill my boots".

Postie's diagramme, by the way, is from the original 1896 specs (you can tell by the hammer spur). There, you can see the similarities to the standard Conehammer that hadn't yet changed in the later production pieces.


Cheers,

Bill

If that is so, then the rocker coupling must be in correctly...no???

Yep, those springs got some tension to them...but why are you trying to drift out the sear spring??? The forked tool sounds like a good idea. Release the tension and remove the spring, coupling, and the two end plugs and the rest look like they'll push right out...

IIRC, that drawing/pic with the spur hammer is from the patent drawings...I have the 10 or 12 pages here somewhere...

Bill, what I am interested in is the interior of the stock lid and body. If you could post a pix, I appreciate that. There is something I am curious.

Hello Gents,

Alvin, I will scan pics of the stock for you. Looking at pics of the interior of a Conehammer stock, mine matches perfectly (including the notch cut for the safety). The door latch inside is a beautiful fire blue.

Postie....I've delayed attempting to remove the coupling and trigger group assembly. I did notice the serial number on the floorplate catch. So far, I've used the carb cleaner on the gummy residue, and it worked fine, followed by a spray degreaser. I've since oiled it with Rust Check, and I'm awaiting for the fluid to "creep" into all the nooks and crannies before I wipe off the excess.

Pics tomorrow, I promise. Midnight shift is a killer on me.

Cheers,

Bill

Thanks Bill. I believe the stock is correct. There is something that I noticed on early stocks. You know, more samples are always important to setup certain patterns. "something"....

Howdy Alvin,

The first 2000 stocks had the serial number on the hinge plate. They also have (as mine does) the welded loop attached. I thought that that was for military leather rigs, but see that it's a Conehammer feature, too. On my stock,the serial number is on the tang of the stock end that attaches to the grip. No markings on the wood.

Pics to come.

It's not regarding the s/n location. "Something" is more subtle than that. Waiting with patience.

Sorry Alvin.....I have some pics for you, but I can't upload them. I've always had trouble doing this (plus midnight shift is kicking my a**).

On top of that, I stripped, cleaned, and reassembled my Conehammer, and.................

Same old problem.

The bolt won't draw back, and the hammer won't fall easily. There's also a "clicking" noise from the trigger group.

I'm hoping that it's not that rocker coupler......I guess that I really have to strip the lock completely, so see if something is jammed or (??) something has broken............

I'm away after work tomorrow, and won't be back until Monday. That'll give me time to think about the problem.

Alvin, if you want to send me a private message, I'll e-mail you the pics.

Cheers,

Bill


Bill

Bill,

You can send pix via email: alvin8341@yahoo.com

Let's review the issues:

(1) The bolt does not draw back easily.

If the upper receiver is not mounted, I would assume the bolt can be draw back easily (?) Since I don't know your experience with C96. Let's do a small experiment if you have not done it yet:

In assembled mode, hammer cocked, one hand hold the gun and push the muzzle against a solid surface, such as table top. The barrel should go back around quater an inch, and the bolt is unlocked in this mode. Another hand pull the bolt open -- it should be very easy to open the bolt in this mode, because it's unlocked.

If the barrel cannot be pushed back, or the bolt cannot be easily opened when the barrel is in its back position..... probably the bolt lock has some issue. Otherwise, I did not see any problem -- C96's bolt locking machenism is not smooth at all. As long as barrel can be pushed back, and bolt can be easily opened when the barrel is in its back position, I did not see any problem.

To be continued..... hold on

Back. Sorry, too many little things have to be handled all the time.

(2) The noise when you pull the trigger..... hammer not cocked....

On later guns, like small ring, you push the trigger when hammer is not cocked, you won't hear anything, and you can feel the resistence from sear spring being consistent. Not the case on the CH though. CH's disconnecting was implemented via a notch on the trigger top, when you pull the trigger, initially, it's smooth, all of a sudden, "click", the disconnector slips off from the trigger. If that's the case, that's normal. Please blame Feederle brothers for this design. This type of disconnecting is obviously unreliable, but that's the way they did it.

If you hear other type of noise other than a single "click".... Lord, I have to hold this gun in hand to figure out why....


(3) Hammer does not drop easily

Many collectors know "dry firing" is not good for the firing pin, so they hold the hammer by hand, pull the trigger, and slowly put down the hammer in controlled way. Is that the way you tried?

That way does not work well on CH. The problem also come from its unique disconnecting mechanism. You hold the hammer and pull the trigger, it is hard for you to control not pull too much. If the trigger is pulled too much, it disconnects from the sear, and sear returns to its locking position. It's not very easy to release hammer this way.

If that's the way you tried, then try this: put a soft pad between the hammer and the firing pin, and pull the trigger. The hammer should be released easily.

As you can see, I made lots of assumptions. Without knowing exactly what you did ... that's the only way .... guesstimation of what's going on. Hopefully, my typing was not totally useless on this one. No? Yes?

Thanks Alvin,

I'll try your reccommendations when I get home.....I'll e-mail you the pics.

The upper receiver/barrel does go back a bit, so I'll see what happens. When I drop forward the hammer, I never do it on an empty chamber ; it was against my thumb(ouch). I also bough A-ZOOM snap caps for 7.63mm, but haven't tried them out yet.

Good old Conehammer with its idiosyncracies.....a rare and weird bird, indeed.

Bye the bye...Did you ever remove the rocker coupling from your CH?


Cheers,

Bill

Stripped via the awkward way that I mentioned earlier -- hammer down and push out the sear spring/hammer pivot. I did not have any special tool.

How could the bolt refuse to unlock ...... disassemble the gun, take out the lock work, hook the bolt lock on top of the lock work, and push down / release the bolt lock a few times, the rear end of bolt lock should fall into the large notch on top of the lock work when you push it hard, and returns to it's up position when you release it. If it does not work, it's easier to view what's going on in this mode, because everything is open for viewing in this mode. Hope it helps. In assembled mode, it's almost MI (mission impossible, from movie :)) to figure out why.

I have never seen a bolt lock that cannot be pushed down in this mode. I did see two of them cannot jump back when I release it. One has MM bolt lock and another one has forced match bolt lock.

Similar way can help ID triggering/sear problem. Disassemble the gun, put lock work back into the grip frame without the barrel/bolt lock. Now the sear movement is viewable when you pull and release the trigger.

Quirky Conehammers.....
 

Hi Alvin,

I wondered how difficult it would have been to re-insert the sear spring shaft back through the hammer, with the mainspring plunger being so powerful. I'll consider your attack on the subject, but for the moment, I am enjoying the "unique" mechanics of a Conehammer!

I did as you suggested, putting pressure on the muzzle to draw back slightly on the upper frame. Sure enough, the bolt slid smoothly back. I didn't load yet with the snap caps to chamber one for dry firing - I just wanted to see her with the bolt open. I dropped the hammer on my thumb (I'm kinda enjoying the pain, now), but notice a trigger pull similar to an old .45. And yes...the click-click of the trigger group is absent without the lock in place. Such beautiful fire blue on the serial-numbered floorplate catch! All in all, a piece of exquisite workmanship. We'll never see the likes of this again.

I'll send you the pics via e-mail in a few minutes.

Hey....any more Conehammer owners out there with stories to tell of their beauties?


Cheers,

Bill

Westley Richards....
 

One last thing before bedtime (at 10:30am!)....

My pistol has the "WESTLEY RICHARDS LTD. LONDON" on the port side (left) of the frame. I was looking for "WR" markings on the stock (some supposedly had them), but not on mine. My mahogany case DOES have a beautiful, weathered WESTLEY RICHARDS trade label, but alas, it is not contemporary. Looks great, though!

Good night/morning.

Bill

Never mind. It's a big country. Localized.

Alvin....did you get my pics?

Your photo below your signature when you write......THAT is one of the markings on the right side of the frame where it joins the barrel. Can you tell me what it signifies?

Cheers,

Bill

Bill, thanks a lot for the pictures. The stock looks correct and is one of the best CH stocks that I've seen. Rig like this is seldomly offered for sale on the market these days.... well, at least on the US gun market. The antler on the right side of the chamber is "Oberndorf Proof House" stamp.

=====

The "problem" with Mauser -- way fewer nice ones available. Sure, fewer people collecting these, demand and supply still balance. The small volume is very annoying though. Tons of guns imported in 1980s floating on the market, but it's not easy to find a nice one.