Help with Black AWM -3-11 Holster
 

I have a black AWM, workshop three, 1911 holster. Inside top flap is marked 16.J.R.1.B.

On the the left side (still inside top flap) it is marked 2.R.J.R. IIB


The holster came with a commercial PO8 with serial # that indicats the year of manufacture was 1910-1913. The take down tool has a crown over a maybe a german script C.

Do the markings inside the holster indicate it was issued for military use later? Does the J.R. signify Jager/Infantry Regiment and R.J.R reserve Jager Regiment? From WWI or WWII?

This gun and holster was taken from a German at Munich in Dec. 1944 Germany. The German claimed to be the mayor or a high ranking political official of Munich. He was in his 50's.

The German owner would have been in his 20's around 1911 and maybe he was the original owner that served in WW1 if someone can confirm the aformentioned RJR and JR stamps are WWI military units.

That GI must have taken a wrong turn and been WAY behind the lines to have obtained this pistol in Munich in December, 1944!!
In December 1944 we were getting a tarring in the Ardennes and the only incursion into the Reich had taken place weeks before in the Aachen area.

I'm sure they mean 1945

These unit markings have already been identified for you on Jan Still's site.

Answer?
 

The early holster teamed with the unit marks and commercial pistol lead to the plausible assumption that the gun was carried by an officer.

The unit markings are Infantry Regiment 2, Second Battalion Staff and Infantry Regiment 16, First Battalion staff. I can not give you more details on the unit markings at this time as I am away from my library.


Was that you George with the above answer. Thanks for that answer. But you have to excuse my ingnorance as the previous poster pointed out. I was not certain if that was WWI or WWII. See complete questions from this post.
I'm sure you assumed I knew which War the regiments served.

Maybe
 

Alanint - I will have to check with that GI and see if I misunderstood 1944 vs. 1945. Also try and confirm Dec. I may have misunderstood that as well. However, I don't really see the significance as it relates to the question unless you are implying the GI does not exist.

Nevertheless, I can assure you that it was taken from a German(either officer or political official) by a real living WWII Gi that served in the 3rd Infantry Division (nicknamed the Rock of the Marne).

In May the Division broke out of the beachhead and drove on to Rome, and then went into training for the invasion of Southern France. On August 15, 1944, another D-day, the Division landed at St. Tropez, advanced up the Rhone Valley, through the Vosges Mountains, and reached the Rhine at Strasbourg, November 26 – November 27, 1944. After maintaining defensive positions it took part in clearing the Colmar Pocket, 23 January 18 February 1945, and on 15 March struck against Siegfried Line positions south of Zweibrucken. The Division smashed through the defenses and crossed the Rhine, March 26, 1945 ; then drove on to take Nurnberg in a fierce battle, capturing the city in block-by-block fighting, 17-20 April. The 3rd pushed on to take Augsburg and Munich, 27-30 April, and was in the vicinity of Salzburg when the war in Europe ended. The 3rd Division suffered more combat deaths in World War II than any other U.S. division, and the third highest among modern U.S. Divisions, behind only the 2nd Infantry Division in the Korean War and the 1st Cavalry Division in the Vietnam War.[citation needed]


Maybe it was spring 1945 since the above indicates they took Munich in April. What do you think Al?

Yes, they are WWI or earlier markings and lend strong credibility to the chances that the pistol was an officer's private purchase pistol

Joe,
I'm not trying to imply anything other than that it would have been a historical impossibility for a GI to have obtained this pistol in Munich in December of 1944.....

Doug..I am puzzled by your statement...it would have been a historical impossibility for a GI to have obtained this pistol in Munich in December of 1944.....

How so? The holster came with a commercial PO8 with serial # that indicates the year of manufacture was 1910-1913. Holster is 1911.

This pistol and holster were leftover from the Great War in Germany and ended up in the hands of a Burgomeister in 1944 and subsequently surrendered as war booty to the GI.

I can't see the impossibility of this sequence of events. What am I missing?

Was it that Munich was not captured in 1944 or? Sounds like a simple confusion of dates...I spent 2 years in Viet Nam and I honestly could not come up with any exact dates for the life of me other than general dates of enlistment and discharge.

Jerry Burney

3rd Infantry
 

Thanks - Jerry and George!

I may have misunderstood the correct date, but will ask about it again. This GI is now 84 years old. Its hard for me to remeber what I did last week.

Apparently the 3rd was at the German and France border Nov. 1944 - and pushed on to take Augsburg and Munich, April 27-30 1945.

Does anyone know anything about take down tool proofs/ marks? This holster came with one and it is a crown over a gothic or Fraktur letter?

Hi Jerry,

Yes, you hit on the problem. Munich was firmly in Nazi hands in December, 1944. See my post above. In December 1944 we were fighting for your lives and the outcome of the war in the Ardennes. The only incursion into Germany itself had occured just weeks earlier in the Aachen area, which is above the Ardennes and just North of the Hurtgen Forrest. The Germans promptly took Aachen back and it was not until the end of January, 1945 that we again crossed the Siegfried line into Germany itself.
This is why I suggested that they possibly meant 1945.

Doug, Yes..Undoubtably a date malfunction.

Pistol, There is little in the way of information about a tool with a crown over a gothic or Fraktur letter..DWM tools were known to be blank and Erfurt ( Govt. Arsenal) were as you describe. So the tool you have would be an Erfurt tool regardless of the letter you have. This would date it from say 1914 to 1918 when the war ended & Kaiser W. abdicated..escaped into exile and the crown was no longer used. Technically speaking I suppose it could have been earlier as well...I am not sure when Erfurt began marking tools. Could be 1909-1910.
Perhaps Klause knows?

Jerry Burney

interesting about the tool.......maybe I can get some good picutes to post for the tool..........I've got some pictures (poor quality) of the gun and holster on the Jan Still site under Commercial 1900-1918 DWM thread.

Thanks again Jerry. What is a holster like that worth?

What is a holster like that worth? I could tell you if I could see it..Without photo's it's shooting in the dark.

Jerry

photos
 

here are photos........black AWM

more photos
 

My camera is horiible:

Joe, Your holster is a nice one. The inside under the top lid has been dyed..I don't like to see that but it's a minor drawback on an early holster. The leather is healthy looking, little cracking and no apparent flaking..nice & shiney. Stitching looks good...The way I like to see them!
The date and condition is what makes this holster appealing as well as the clear deep markings. The unit mark is another good point.

I would guess this holster would bring $350-450 on the market. Perhaps more if the right guy wanted it. If the economy were a tad better this holster could demand another $200+ in my opinion.
Nazi holsters are a dime a dozen in comparison to these fine Imperial artifacts. While Imperial pieces are not as sought after as the 3rd Reich items they are infinately more interesting to advanced collectors and those of us who study the "Great War to end all Wars".

You do not appear to be able to activate your macro....Too bad. I would like to see some macro photo's of this very fine rig.

Jerry Burney

Pistol, I´m a German collector and my English is not the best. But I hope it´s good enough that you will know what I mean.
Your holster is an Bavarian holster and your gun is also Bavarian.
It seems that the Luger was iossued at first to the 1. Battaillon of the Bavarian 16. Infantry Regiment which was stationed in Passau and Landshut. Later it was issued to the 2. Battaillon of the Bavarian 2. Reserve Infantrie Regiment.
Because your Luger is a commercial one it seems that it belonged to an officer who was at first member of the 16 Inf Reg. and may be during the Great war member of the B. 2. Res. Inf. Reg.
If the tool you mentioned is a Crown/C accepted tool than it is an Erfurt tool. Only Erfurt Lugers got the C/C acceptance mark.
Erfurt tools have another shape than DWM tools.
I attach a photo of an C/C tool. May be it is the one like yours.
Best regards Klaus

Thanks Jerry - how do you activate macro?

Joe, Read the owners manual on your camera. Often it is simple as pushing a button to get closeups to focus. Perhaps your camera does not have the capability...

Jerry
Burney

Klaus

here are tool photos - still blurry - I'll try different camera next week

It is similar to yours but it is slightly differnt crown and not a C. I con't know what letter it is D or N?

Pistol, I think it´s this one, the crown/A?!
Regards Klaus

Yes - that is it. An A! What type of font type style is that? The Fraktur and German script "A" examples that I have don't exactly match the "A" inscribed on the tools. My mark is not has prominent as
yours (mine being faintly stamped).

What does the crown/A mean? Is it Erfurt, and what are the dates of manufacter?

Klaus - where I can I find more about the histories of the regiments stamped on the holster?

The German owner was in his 50's in 1944 or 1945 and said he was a Burgomeister? I wonder if he was the WWI soldier that served in those regiments.

Pistol, so faintly as on the first photo? The second photo is showing all Erfurt tools I know to exist. Erfurt tools are coming in the white and have a special shape.

Reckendorf, a German expert, wrote, that the family name of the acceptance officer started with the A. I´m suspect about this theory which is based an German archives. I have all the names of the acceptance officers of Spandau, Erfurt and other gun and rifle factories. But I must say that I´m unable since more than 20 years to bring some light in this thing.

It´s no problem to find something out about the regiments which are stamped into your holster. I will write something about tomorro. Remember me if I should forget it.

The German owner was a Bürgermeister (mayor, oh, yes in my dictionary stand Burgomeister). May be his father was the member of the Bavarian regiment(s) and former owner of the Luger. But if he was born in the early 90`it could have been possible that he was in the Great war and later Bürgermeister in his 50´s.

It would be nice to see better photos of gun and holster.

Best regards Klaus

Both the Bavarian 16. Inf. Reg. with honor name Großherzog Ferdinand von Toskana and the Bavarian 2. Inf. Reg. with honor name Kronprinz “made” together the Bav. 2. Infantry Brigade. These both were active regiments. In many cases reserve regiments were build with former active soldiers. And in many cases the equipment was transferred from an active to a reserve regiment at the beginning of the Great War. Often the equipment was sold from one regiment to another!!! It seems that it was also so with your Luger and the holster. Because your Luger is a commercial one it seems that your Luger belonged to an officer who had to buy the gun and all equipment with his own money. I know a lot of examples for this practice.

Back to your holster: I think your Luger and it´s holster was at the beginning of the Great War “part” of the Bav. 2. Inf. Reg. and fought as a part of the 1. Bavarian Reserve Division only at the Western front: 1914 and 1915 mostly on the Flanders front (Arras, Artois, Nancy; La Bassee and so on); in 1916 Battle at the Somme and Flanders and Aisne; in 1917 also in Flanders and Artois and 1918 in Flanders (Ypres, Armentieres and Lys).

I visited all these battle fields and will visit them one more in a few weeks.
My grandpa fought there on the German side of course and his brother died there 1918 near Maissemy in France where I hope to find his grave. The attached photos are showing my grandpa who was born in 1887. I remember him well as a really tall man with great hands. On these photos, about 1916 and 1917, he was an Unteroffizier of the 1. Escadron of the Reserve Hussar No. 8.

As I often must write: My English is not the best, but I hope I could answer your question. If not, let me know.
Best regards Klaus

Klaus.
Are you as good looking as your grandfather?:)

Thank you very much Klaus for your posts regarding the histroy of the German Regiments and the take-down tool. Also, the photos of your Grandpa are interesting. You should be proud.

The tool I have looks identical to the first close-up tool photo of your last post. Very interesting. What is the range in years the C/A tools were made.......1908 to 1914?

I will try and get better photos of holster and gun.

Bavarian 16. Inf. Reg. with honor name Großherzog Ferdinand von Toskana and the Bavarian 2. Inf. Reg. with honor name Kronprinz “made” together the Bav. 2. Infantry Brigade.



Is there a list of the soldier or officer names that served in these units?

Ron, I do not.
Pistol, I think these Erfurt tools were made between 1911 and 1914. I got some unit histories. In most cases the names of the soldiers who died in action were mentioned.
Regards Klaus

Klaus

Was this the same units that Hitler served in or is that a different regiment.

I found this link http://www.hitlerpages.com/pagina32.html


According to this source, In 1914 Hitler joined Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 16 (List-Regiment or RIR 16), part of the 2nd Bavarian Infantry Regiment. The first or second batallion was his batallion, but since he served as a regimental dispatch runner (Meldegänger) his whereabouts and shelters could be different from the locations the front soldiers where at. Sometimes there was a special shelter for dispatch runners and he must have been at the regiment staf buildings a lot too. It was his job to bring messages from the staf to the soldiers in the front line.

It’s important to know that Hitler was part of the 1st or 2nd Kompanie of the Reserve Infanterie Regiment 16 (RIR 16 or the List-regiment) untill October 7, 1915. After that he joined the 3rd Kompanie. Both were part of the 1st batallion of RIR 16. The most prominent sources used here are the Erinnerungsblätter Regimenter Bayerische Armee, Das Reserve Regiment List (Solleder, 1932), Mit Adolf Hitler im Bayerischen Reserve Infanterie Regiment 16 List (Meijer, 1931) and Frontsoldat Hitler (Russell, 2006).













August 5 - München

Hitler’s request to join the German army is granted. He reports to the 1st Bavarian Infantry Regiment but gets transfered to the 1th batalion of Reserve Infanterie Regiment 16 (List regiment) of the 2nd Bavarian Infantry Regiment in München.

October 8 – München

Ceremonial farewell at the Türkenkaserne, with the king present. Hitler might have been there.

October 9 – München

Hitler completes his basic training in München.

October 10 – March to Lechfeld

The 1st battalion marches to Lechfeld for fight training: through the Landsbergerstrasse - Pasing – Gilching (first day) – Türkenfeld (second day). Another source mentions the route through: Alling (a village West of München) and Türkenfeld (also West of München), where they spend the night outside)

Having reached Lechfeld company 1 and 2 spend the night at the Kloster Lechfeld.

October 17 – Lechfeld

Hitler completes his supplementary military training at Lager Lechfeld, Bayern.

Hitler was in the 16th Reserve a different unit entirely.

Thanks George.

Date Clarification
 

Doug and Jerry -

I spoke to my grandpa today. He is the 3rd Infantry Division WWII vet that obtained the luger with Holster in Munich. He confirmed that it was late April or early May 1945. I had the Dec. 1944 date confused with another story.

Anyway, he said the prisoners were in a line to submit all guns, knives, binouculars, etc. and were instructed to place them in a large pile. This man did not seem to happy about surrendering his luger, and handed it to my grandpa instead of placing it into the pile with the other surrendered items.

He told my grandpa that he was a Burgomeister of Munich. My grandpa stated he looked to be in his early to mid 50's. So, it is possible this man was a member of the Bavarian regiment listed on the Holster.

My grandpa has always assumed he was lying about being a Burgomeister. He did say the man was wearing civilian clothes and not a military uniform.

If th guy was THE Burgermeister he would most likely have been isolated from any group as he would have been a high ranking Nazi party member. He may have been a past Burgermeister.

From Wikipedia:

Bürgermeister, in German: in Germany, Austria, and formerly in Switzerland. In Switzerland, the title was abolished mid-19th century; various current titles for roughly equivalent offices include Gemeindepräsident, Stadtpräsident, Gemeindeammann, and Stadtammann.
In history (sometimes until the beginning of the 19th c.) in many cities (such as Bremen, Hamburg, Lübeck etc.) the function of burgomaster was usually held simultaneously by three persons, serving as an executive college. One of the three being burgomaster in chief for a year (called in some cases in German: präsidierender Bürgermeister; in English: presiding burgomaster), the second being the prior burgomaster in chief, the third being the upcoming one. Präsidierender Bürgermeister is now an obsolete formulation sometimes found in historic texts.
In an important city, especially in a city state (Stadtstaat), where one of the Bürgermeister has a rank equivalent to that of a minister-president, there can be several posts called Bürgermeister in the city's executive college, justifying the use of a compound title for the actual highest Magistrate (also rendered as Lord Mayor), such as:
Regierender Bürgermeister (literally 'Governing Burgomaster' commonly translated as 'Lord Mayor') in Berlin, while in Berlin the term Bürgermeister without attribute refers to the heads of its 12 boroughs.
Erster Bürgermeister (literally 'First Burgomaster') in Hamburg
Bürgermeister und Präsident des Senats ('Burgomaster and President of the Senate') in Bremen
Oberbürgermeister ('Supreme Burgomaster') is the most common version. The Ober- (lit. upper) prefix is used in many ranking systems for the next level up including military designations. The mayors of cities, which simultaneously comprise one of Germany's 112 urban districts usually bear this title. Urban districts are comparable to independent cities in the English-speaking world. However, also the mayors of some cities, which do not comprise an urban district, but often used to comprise one until the territorial reforms in the 1970s, bear the title Oberbürgermeister.

CHIEF EXECUTIVES
First Mayors
Erste Bürgermeister

TERM DATES Birth & Death
1838 - 1854 Jakob Bauer 1787 - 1853
1854 - 1870 Kaspar von Steinsdorf 1797 - 1879
1870 - 1887 Alois von Erhardt 1831 - 1888
1888 - 1893 Johannes von Widenmayer 1838 - 1893
1893 - 1919 Wilhelm Georg von Borscht 1857 - 1919
1919 - 1924 Eduard Schmid 1861 - 1933

1924 - 1933 Karl Scharnagl, with the honorific
title of Oberbürgermeister since 1926 1881 - 1963

Head Mayors
Oberbürgermeister

1933 - 1945 SS-Obergruppenf. Karl Fiehler 1895 - 1945


Based on these birth and death dates it could only be Karl Scharnagl or Karl Fiehler. If the man was truely a burgermeister. Or based on the previous post maybe he was a lessor vice type mayor. Karl Scharnagl was ousted by the Nazis and the high ranking Nazi Karl Fiehler took his place unitl the Americans came in late April 1945 and then Scharnagl took the office again.

Who knows. Maybe the man was lying looking for special treatment. My next research is going to focus on the two Karl's and see if and when they served in WWI. I know Fiehler served, but don't know where.

Klaus - what do you think? How can I find what regiment Karl Fiehler served in during WWI? If it was Fiehlers gun, would it have had SS and Nazi symbols?

Before I spend any more time on this, is the second guy's name Fiehler or Kiehler? You spell it both ways. So far neither of these nor Scharnagl show up in the Bavarian Army's Rangliste of 1914 or in the Ehernliste 1914-1918. Whoever he was he may have been an officer of the reserve in which case it becomes much more difficult to track.

George - the only two living Mayors of München in 1945 were:

Karl Scharnagl or Karl Fiehler

Karl Fiehler would have been 19 years old in the year 1914 and 50 in 1945.

Karl Scharnagl would have been 33 years old in the year 1914, and 64 in 1945.



According to this he had the following military decorations listed below. However, I can't find where he served.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Fiehler


Eisernes Kreuz von 1914 2. Klasse (EK II) (Engl.: "Iron Cross of 1914, 2nd Class")
Verwundetenabzeichen von 1918 in Schwarz (Engl.: "Wound Badge of 1918 in Black")
Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer (1935) (Engl.: "Cross of Honour for Frontline Combatants")
Kriegsverdienstkreuz (KVK) I. Klasse ohne Schwerter (Engl.: "War Merit Cross, 1st Class without Swords)
Kriegsverdienstkreuz (KVK) II. Klasse ohne Schwerter (Engl.: "War Merit Cross, 2nd Class without Swords)
Goldenes Parteiabzeichen der NSDAP (Engl.: "Golden Party Award of the NSDAP)
Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 9. November 1923 ("Blutorden") (Engl.: "Commemmorative Medal of November 9, 1923" - "Blood Order" for those involved in the "Beer Hall Putsch")
Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 13. März 1938 ("Österreichmedaille") (Engl.: "Commemmorative Medal of March 13, 1938" - annexation of Austria)
Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938 ("Sudetenlandmedaille") (Engl.: Commemmorative Medal of October 1, 1938" - annexation of the Sudetenland)
Dienstauszeichnung der NSDAP für 25 Dienstjahre (Gold) (Engl.: "Long-Service Award in the NS-Party, 25 years, Gold")
Dienstauszeichnung der NSDAP für 15 Dienstjahre (Silber) (Engl.: "Long-Service Award in the NS-Party, 15 years, Silver")
Dienstauszeichnung der NSDAP für 10 Dienstjahre (Bronze) (Engl.: "Long-Service Award in the NS-Party, 10 years, Bronze")
SS-Ehrenring (Totenkopfring) (Engl.: "SS Honour Ring - Death's head ring")
Ehrendegen des Reichsführers-SS (Engl.: "Honor Sword of the SS Field Marshal")

Klaus
 

Here are two better photos of the the takedown tool.

Klaus if you are out there - What is your take on the owner claim to be Oberbürgermeister?