1939 Banner Army
 

I have a opportunity to purchase a Mauser Banner that
was Army contract. The gentleman that has it for sale said they were much rarer that the Police contract. I have attached photos of the pistol below and would like if some of the experts on the forum would give their opinions of the pistol and what it's worth might be . I am by no means in any way knowlegeable on these era Lugers and Any opinions are greatly appreciated .

Thanks
Chuck Lobrano

The "+" magazine markings make me think it may not be original....

I dunno. This is either an amazingly well preserved piece, or one that went thru re-hab. The magazine bodies show some wear/rust/use, but not the gun? The suffix script on one mag, and the font, does not match the other. No bluing loss on the back of the frame from the toggle? There is no cross line on the bottom of the "1" on the front of the frame (and a suspect suffix) or on one of the mags.
My vote is a restored/renumbered gun.
Now everyone can fawn over it and tell me what an idiot I am.
Value can only be assigned once originality has been established.
DJU

One magazine is fxo stamped and the other is 122 stamped. Both of which did not appear until after 1939...

Charles
Re; !939 Dated Banner, sn 1497s, SE63 SE63 LTP on right receiver.

This Luger is not consistent with previously reported 1939 Banner Army/Police Lugers. Those dated 1939 are reported in the 602x-607x serial range, are accepted with the E/655 E/655 stamp, and most always are drilled for the sear safety but it is not installed.

Its magazines appear recently made up with fake acceptance stamps. Proper magazines for this Luger are almost always numbered in the police style.

Not a correct Luger!
Jan

The "+" magazine's "1" appears to have over struck a "6" The rest are covering previous numbers as well but it is not as obvious as the "1"

The serial fonts on the barrel and grip frame are different...(especially the "1")...

And I am suspicious of the Mauser banner on the toggle...I looked first to see if the toggle edges were too rounded, indicating buffing prior to re-bluing...but it seems to me (I am only an egg!) that there is not enough chamfer on the toggle edges...indicating perhaps filing/milling to remove an old stamp and the addition of the Mauser banner stamp???

Might just be my imagination...and low suspicious mind...

But the "9" on the toggle number and the "9" on the extractor are different fonts also...

The Mauser Banner is also off center to the toggle link. It is sitting closer the left side of the gun than to the right

There were no Mauser banner lugers made in the "S" suffix letter block (began in the V suffix range). 1939 Milillary accepted ones are usually in the "W" suffix range with a code 42 marked toggle assy. TH

+1

Is that the normal response to observations/opinions here??? :confused:

Looks like a double-strike, too, doesn't it???

I was going to mention that as well. There is a distinct shadow at the top of the banner that does not look right.

Quote:
Now everyone can fawn over it and tell me what an idiot I am.

Is that the normal response to observations/opinions here???



Postino:
No that is not the normal response here, but I'm a new guy going out on a limb and sort of expected someone to start sawing...

So back to Chuck's original question regarding value. Seems that we all agree (?) that this is not an unmolested original. So where does that leave the value? Certainly more than a mismatched shooter, but not as much as an original.
Is $1750 way high?
DJU

Yeah, I've been called an idiot here, too...I just made a note of the source, to remind me not to pay any attention to their opinions... ;)

As to value, I think I've probably seen an example like this go for ~$1000 - $1200...but they're usually listed as refinished...If this guy is seriously trying to hook a fish on GB or GA, he'll probably ask $2500 for it...and try to pass it off as a rare variation...

...My idiotic $.02 worth... :D

I wouldn't pay $1750 for a faked gun...

Pay a bit more and have its value increase, one that stands out like this won't increase in value like a real one will....

well, if I catch anyone calling someone an idiot in more than a playful manner; then we'll drop a large boot on their behind!


Real exchanges of ideas and opinions is always welcome; its the tearing apart of some poor new guy that makes them not apprecaite or like lugers and thats not what we are about here....

There's an interesting point...If it was on GB or GA, it could be construed as fraudulent advertising...

Someone put a lot of time & effort into converting this gun (if, indeed, it is a restamped/refinished Luger)...they're not likely to accept a lowball bid...they'll wait for the big sell...to someone who doesn't know any better, or who trusts them...

We don't know who the OP is in contact with about this Luger...Might be someone he knows well, and is willing to accept their description and judgment about...It is nice looking...

I've been offered some pretty amazing stuff while standing looking in a shop window...I turned the seller down; but that's just because I'm paranoid... :p

1939 Mauser Banner
 

Thanks everybody for all of the information. I am very appreciative of this forum and the expert opinions . It certainly keeps a novice like myself from buying something that is not what it is presented as. At present the gentlemen has not quoted me a price and he only offered the gun to me since i was a easy sell for a previous Pistol. With all this information about this pistol I am now super suspect of the previous one I bought from him. I bought the other one and have no one other than myself to blame. The gentleman that sold it to me is just offering the pistol and is just trying to make as much on the sell as he can. I had bought the other pistol before many of the experts on this forum looked at it and it was in their opinion that it was interesting but was questionally correct[it was a deathhead simson rework but it was a little more difficult to judge] I have learned a good lesson and will always consult the experts on this forum for their advice .


Thanks again all

Chuck Lobrano

Chuck, did you post over on Jan Still's Forum to see what he thought??? I like to get as many opinions as possible on subjects like this, and there are other experts over there (as well as some from here who frequent that Forum as well) who I'm sure would like to comment on your Mauser Banner Luger as well as your Totenkopf Luger.

In fact, I posted a question on your Simson Deathhead thread...

Hello Postino

No sir I did not post the Mauser or the simson on Mr Stills forum however
I believe that Mr. Still is the third reply on this thread about the Mauser Banner.
His opinion is that this is definitely a incorrect Luger. Knowing his expertise
it is highly likely[99.99999%] a fake. I should have put the Tk on his site but
I had a significant response from very knowledgable experts such as Mr Don Maus and Ron Wood on the simson and came to the conclusion that it was probably a significantly altered Luger also but i had already purchased it and I did like the Luger so went no further with any inquiries but i will possibly post both on the other forum like you have suggested.
I don't remember your question but send it to me again and I will see if I can anwer it

Thanks
Chuck Lobrano

It was asked of the group; I wondered if the TK graphics on the chamber were most often found centered or off-centered in relation to the date...

I have never seen one in person...Is it a stamping or an engraving???

Chuck where is the seller located?

My humble opinion is that BOTH these guns were altered by the same person. The finish, grips and general look of both guns are remarkably similar. The work of a talented, but unscrupulous booster.
I also think that it is telling that the same person is moving both guns....

Hmmmmmmm?

It's interesting that there are so many books out detailing the Luger variations and their markings...It makes it easier to copy... :(

For the unscrupulous, I mean... :D

The gentleman that I purchased the Simson Rework and is trying to
sell the "Mauser Banner "is in Pennsylvania . He was selling a 1912 Erfurt on
Gun Broker a few weeks ago and I called to late because it had already sold. He did say that
he had the Simson rework with a deathhead . I purchased it and still am very satisfied with it
because it seems to have a very interesting history. I am a neophyte and when he said he had another Luger I decided to get opinions . It seems if the Banner Luger has had much more "boosting" than the other.

Reworked gun is for advanced collectors only, in my opinion. The hardest part is figuring out who did what at when. Many things can hide under the "It was reworked" umbrella :) If no interest to figure out, then bypass.

Like the Southwest and Minnesota, Pennsylvania is dangerous territory for fakes.