new to me Luger-it needs help!!
 

Hi, everyone,

I now possess a new-to-me Luger that I need some help with. I am working on photos, but am having difficulty getting the quality I need to post good ones for benefit of the forum.

While I work on that I've done some research. I know my way around a milsurp, but am new to Lugers. I've field stripped it but haven't detail stripped it due to condition problems. Here's what I've found so far:

1917 DWM, ser XX48 g series, mid-four digits. No second year stamp. What caliber is this in?
All numbers I've been able to find match. Last 2 ser # digits (all reading 48) in obvious view makes it a military pistol, based on FAQ found in this forum. Although wood-bottomed, the magazine does not show any visible markings that I can see. German wording on safety area and no "Germany" import stamp. No other import markings. A very few parts have N in circle stamped on them (front sight, etc). Pistol has four proof marks on right side of frame. There is a number M 13324 electropenciled on the front strap. Any ideas what this means? Any help in ID'ing this pistol further is greatly appreciated.

Overall, pistol is in generally poor condition and I am not sure it functions properly. Toggle action is syrupy and will not latch in place; will not return to battery without assistance. It appears the pistol was chromed a very long time ago. The chrome on the latch plate is beginning to crack and a small patch .25" in length is flaked away. Chrome finish = maybe 65%, with significant wear on user contact areas. Rust present over chrome in many places. Mag well has a fine coating of rust, which has transferred to the mag. Should a correct magazine for this pistol be blued or aluminum? Bore condition shows to be poor, although reflective of the overall condition of the gun. It will likely clean up significantly as little to no rifling shows at this time. Grips have not been removed yet, but the left one exhibits the million dollar chip and overall are heavily worn, matching the overall wear on the gun. Lots of nicks, etc on these, and the checkering around the backstrap is worn smooth. Someone has crudely carved the letter H on the left grip close just south of the frame.

The person I got it from says "it came from the war". If so it has been separated from its bringback papers, but knowing this person as I do it wouldn't surprise me if it were a legit bringback. He states the pistol stayed in the family after it was brought home, and he is the third family owner. Looks to me like I have a very neglected Luger that may have potential for a first-quality restoration. What do I have here? I have a couple of options on what to do with this pistol. 1: Clean it, repair it and shoot it. 2: Clean it, de-rust it, repair it, buy replacement parts to install and use while saving the originals, shoot it. 3: Give it a first class best-quality restoration. I figure the value is diminished significantly enough due to the rust and chrome that a restoration may actually be appropriate in this case because it appears to be all-matching. Opinions sought. HELP!

Thanks,
Justin

Justin
With all the problems this luger has I would recommend making it useable and shooting it. It is not valuable enough or in the correct condition to restore. All you will have is an expensive shooter. It is amazing sometimes how well a poor barrel will shoot. Bill

Bill just gave you good advice in the short form..

What caliber is this in? Should be 9MM. See if a yellow pencil will drop into the barrel..If so..9MM.
There is a number M 13324 electropenciled on the front strap. Any ideas what this means? Yes, It means some bonehead ruined a good magazine.

Should a correct magazine for this pistol be blued or aluminum? The correct magazine is a sheet steel wood bottom. You should look for a MecGar if you want to shoot it.

The person I got it from says "it came from the war". Technicaly he's right but when it got here some GI took it to the chrome bumper shop and it went for a swim.

It probably could use a new set of Wolf springs a good cleaning and then enjoy shooting it.

Jerry Burney

Thanks, y'all. IF value is that far gone, think anyone would have a problem w/ putting this in an electrolysis tank to remove the rust and chrome plate, then finishing the metal with something better so I can have a good shooter rather than a POS?

I'd go for it. Some platers offer re-heat treatment to counter of hydrogen embrittlement. But maybe the Doc could offer a definitive answer.
Unplate it, and you can bead blast/salt blue it for not much $. Straw coloring is an easy home job (as soon as your wife leaves for a few minutes). Repro. grips, MefGar mag.
By the time you spend a hundred or so and a few hours laboring over it you will have a fun shooter that you will be a part of.
Then start looking around for your next one.
DJU

Justin
Can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with cleaning it up. Happy shooting and welcome to the forum. Bill

SBGF, If your not versed in Lugers, I'd suggest having a qualified gunsmith clean off the rust, replace the springs and test fire for you to make sure that it is safe. You can always, refinish it late, if you so choose. TH

Thanks, everyone! I detail stripped it and it is a mess. Looks like there may be rust under the chrome. Pitting is evident under the grips. Bore appears to be rough but will see how it turns out after EBC. It's too bad, b/c every single number matches, index marks are in place and I can see a little old bluing here and there. The good news is that it looks like there is a lot of dried oil, grease, and powder residue that is causing the action to be syrupy. That'll clean up and the new springs will give it even more life. It doesn't look like it's been cleaned since it was captured!!

Lugerdoc, thanks for your concern. I will have a GS check it out, but it looks a lot like some of the othermilsurps I've seen and I think this is going to make a good shooter project. For reference, I'm not above tackling one of the T53 Mosin Nagant carbines currently available from Omega Systems (I have a Romanian one, though)-right now a complete rifle is something like $35 to $50 but needs a large amount of cleaning and TLC. Check 'em out. They'll make you wanna be sick!

In another forum I belong to there are many of us who own Mosin Nagant rifles and have at least some pitting below the woodline-usually doesn't affect shootability if it isn't extensive or deep. Since the pitting I am seeing isn't in the breech block/firing mech. section (that actually is in much better condition!)I think I can dechrome it, dunk it in the electrolysis tank to de-rust, fill the pits w/ JB weld and sand smooth, then Duracoat in Gun Blue (don't flame me, purists!!-I'm trying to bring it back from the dead!!). Really, this pistol won't be decent with any kind of actual bluing (cold or hot) unless I dump some serious dough into it (which is not going to happen), so I will have to use a coating that will hide the repair. Bluing will just make it ugly and obvious and parking isn't an option.

Anyway, will post pics (poor quality, but better than none) along the way.

Thanks for the welcome,
Justin

As promised-OK! I made an album. See here:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/album.php?u=6789

It's only a few pics but I hope they give a little idea of what I'm up against. The rust on the left side of the frame is actually worse than on the right. I left out the grips, but they are worn smooth in places and pretty chewed up in others-Hitler himself carved an "H" on the left one!:cool:

By the way, one of the small breech block parts has the word "Geladen" engraved on it. Does anyone know what that means?

Anyway, check out the photos and let me know what you think!

Justin

Justin,

"geladen" means "loaded" in German. When the extractor is raised by a round in the chamber, the word appears to indicate the loaded condition of the pistol.

Justin, It looks like you're future includes many hours of solvent and elbow grease to get this baby in operating condition. If I can be of assistance for parts, let me know, but I'll leave the cleaning labor up to you. Lugerdoc

Alanint,

Thanks for the translation. I've not shot one of these, so I didn't know about that-is it visible to the shooter?

Doc,

Yes, I agree-I'm beginning to see what I'm in for re: cleaning, but it'll be worth it. Just looking at it makes you want to put everything in the parts washer and leave it there for a week or two. For all the rust and grime, though, the parts really don't seem all that worn except for the bore. I'm very interested to see what comes out of the electrolysis tank, though.

Justin

Justin,

The word "geladen" will be visible to the shooter from both sides when the breech is closed with a round in the chamber. Since the extractor is raised when a round is in the chamber it can also be felt in low light as an indicator of a loaded gun.

This will be a very interesting project. I kind of envy you because I like restorations - as in bringing the dead to life - a lot. Its been a hobby for years. I'll be very interested to see your progress on the old Luger.

Charlie

Ice,

Thanks. We'll see. Where in Texas are you?

Depends on what you call restoration-I think the very best I can hope for is minor pitting only under the grip panels-if so I can do a good quality cold blue. I've done that before on an M44 and it turned out really well-using a dish detergent w/ phosphate really helps to set up the bluing.

Question for the field: can I replicate straw with a cold blue (OxphoBlue or blue wonder, likely), or is it limited to hot or rust bluing??

Justin,

Replicating straw is probably going to be the easiest part of your restoration. Search on the site here for the method to use.

Justin, I wrote the straw sticky, get in touch with me if you need help......

I live near Houston. The straw blueing sticky is excellent. Youtube has an interesting video on coloring gun parts with nitre blueing salts. Depending on temp you can get a straw color with that method too. The stick method here is much safer though IMHO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM_Z1Tax2k0

Charlie

Ok y'all, first question for help.

I'm trying to drift out the coupling link pin so that I can separate the coupling link from the back half of the toggle assembly. So far it has defeated me. :mad:

It's not bent, b/c I have full travel, with no sticking. Part moves freely on its axis, with no histeresis (doesn't wobble). Is there a trick to it? Is there maybe a stop rim on one side of it, so that I might be trying to drift it out from the wrong side?

Also, after having started my detail cleaning I am finding some bluing underneath the rust I have been able to remove, and under some of the chrome plating that is starting to flake away. It's not great, but it's there, and the pitting may not be as bad as I feared. So, I am cautiously hopeful that I can do a good quality cold blue on this (yay!!), rather than coat it . So, here's what I need to know:

I've observed that there are three kinds of finishes on these guns, based on photos I've seen on this site: blued, blued/strawed, and in the white. Can someone point me to a list that tells me what parts are blued, what parts are strawed, and what remains in the white? If the option to blue is going to be put on the table, I want to make it appear proper and respectable. Thanks!

Justin, I'm trying to drift out the coupling link pin so that I can separate the coupling link from the back half of the toggle assembly. So far it has defeated me.

If I am not mistaken on the pin your talking about..it is held in place by a VERY small pin. You must look it over carefully and you may see it.

Jerry Burney

Jerry,

Thanks for the reply. I got that one out w/ no problem. Left the little microscopic pin about 1/3 way out so I wouldn't lose it!

The pin I'm talkign about is part number 8 on the attached exploded view:

http://www.okiegunsmithshop.com/luger08.jpg

I can't get the pin out so I can separate part numbers 6 and 9 for detail cleaning.

One end of the pin is as best I can discribe it is hammered into a small dia head, not sure which side was always done, but it should drift out the other side easy....let us know if we can perhaps provide more/better help.....

OK Jerry beat me to the draw, but that pin will have a very small head on one side, so small a head that it would hardly matter as it would drift through either side is needed to...

OK, thanks, guys. I noticed a couple of other pins on this pistol are the same way. Guess I will just follow the drawing and start hammering away from the starboard side...

let us know...

Update:

Last night I decided to move on and start electrolysis for rust removal. Photos will be posted in the album when time permits. Catalyst media was 3 tbsp baking soda (heated to 450 deg F for 10 minutes, to change it from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate) dissolved in 2 gallons of tap water. Anodes are rebar. Source is an electric car battery charger set at 6 volts. Time in tank = 3-4 hours (magazine body was only in for about 20 minutes).

Results were excellent for rust removal. The steel magazine body came out clean as a whistle and only required a few strokes of 0000 steel wool and a clean dry cloth to make it ready for bluing. I will most definitely be cleaning up the rest of the magazine parts and putting them back together for use.

I also put the frame, barrel/slide, and rear toggle in (coupling link pin still in place, thank you:surr:). As expected rust removal was very good where exposed. Post-dip clean up with steel wool was more difficult due to the number of nooks and crannies but again provided acceptable results. The bore has also started to clean up-lots more brown gunk came out and I am seeing lands and grooves that are a tad better defined than they were before. I suspect that with further cleaning geared toward copper and lead removal this will improve. Balance of small parts will not be subjected to rust removal as they are all relatively rust free after initial pre-dip detail cleanup.

Goal number 2 is chrome removal. I was interested in whether or not the formula above would remove the chrome plate as many have speculated this process ruins chrome-lined bores. I can now confidently report by way of observation that the chrome plating on these parts was not affected in any way by this process and remains intact and shiny. Although the difference in hard chrome bore lining and shiny decorative chrome plating is understood I would submit that the comparatively mild (slightly alkaline) electrolysis process above will not affect either chrome format.

My next step will be to change the catalyst media to muriatic acid or other suitable chemical to remove the chrome plate.

Final step before bluing prep will be to subject all parts necessary to a final detail cleaning and degreasing.

As this process continues I am becoming further convinced that rebluing will be the preferred finish. Again, any assistance is appreciated in finding a list of which parts are blued, which are strawed, and what remains in the white. Research on this site hasn't come up with much that is definitive (not flaming!), but I think this would be sticky material if it could be had.

Thanks for your interest and input,
Justin

I'm no expert, but you didn't say whether it was hard (industrial) chrome or decorative chrome. Dec chrome is a 3-step process (copper, nickle, chromium) whereas hard chrome is chromium only (different alloy from dec chromium).

I've had dec chrome removed by a professional plater; the three metals take different acidic solutions to remove the different metals. Hard chrome can be a real bitch to remove, without damaging/removing the parent metal.

Don't ask me how I know. :(

Dealing w/ decorative chrome here, not hard chrome.

I also think the decorative chrome was not applied well to begin with. Where it has flaked away no copper or nickel is visible, and I see remnants of bluing. New areas are peeling away in small amounts with little effort.

I may be hardheaded but I will be attempting the dechrome myself. Risk is low, potential for success is good and I have a solution for the waste.

It may be total BS, but I've read that immersing the part/soaking for a week in Coca-Cola will remove chrome and/or rust... :p

I'm looking at various sites that recommend ways to remove the chrome...Sounds like it can be done at home...or more properly, in a well ventilated garage...outside...with goggles, respirator, and rubber gloves...

I do Parkerizing in my kitchen, but I don't recommend it...but then, I'm a bachelor, and my stove is a tool, not an appliance... :D

Did you see the Mythbusters thing too? :thumbup:

I know whatcha mean! All my work is being done outside, due to complaints from family members. Yes, the dechrome is going to be a little nastier than the derust, but like I said, I have a plan for it.

I also have a parkerizing project coming up soon-an 18.25" riot barrel to match my shotgun.

Anyway, film at 11...

More pics posted in the album: http://forum.lugerforum.com/album.php?u=6789

It's basically the electrolysis tank (simple set up, really) and the mag body. I can post a photo of the frame if you wish, but for the post part it's now as clean as the mag-it just still has the chrome on it!

Anyway, will keep posted as to progress.

Justin

Update:

Based on a trial run with the dechrome process (using an old car part I had lying around) I have decided to take all parts to the chrome platers and have them strip the parts to bare metal. My results were less than satisfactory, and created a significant mess to clean up on the part. The car part still retained chrome and I had too much difficulty with the electricity-too much current, hard to control correctly, etc. It also took way to long to get the poor results that it yielded. I tried it, didn't care for it, but am willing to try it again if another opportunity presents itself.

So, I am going to take a little time to get the replacement springs on order and pick out which bluing I want to use-I am just about convinced that bluing is the way to go on this gun, but am still worried about corrosion under the chrome. Perhaps I can live with it if it's not too deep by putting an emery cloth or emery paper on it to smooth it out if needed.

I can't seem to get good photos of what the inside of this pistol is supposed to look like. Everything I can find has nice, pretty photos of the exterior of the pistol-very little shows individual or semi-hidden parts and I can't get a good fix on how this thing is really supposed to look. I know I can't make it perfect, but I want it respectable, so I want it reasonably close to original-looking. I have questions:

I can see from several photos what parts are supposed to be strawed. Not a problem.

Is the entire frame (inside the barrel channel and out) supposed to be blued? Or am I looking at bluing the outside and leaving the inside in the white?

Recoil spring linkage-blue or in-white?

Toggle Section-all blue, including recoil link? All blue inside and out?

Upper frame-blue on inside, or in-white?

Thanks!

Justin

...???...

I get an error msg when I try to view any of your pics...

vBulletin Message

postino, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?

2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

I normally wouldn't mention it, but one pic was featured in the bottom-of-the-page previews, and it looked like you had stripped the frame...but impossible to tell without seeing it...

..

This member seems to have dropped off the face of the earth...(abducted by aliens perhaps???)...Albums all restricted; no contact info whatsoever...In fact, the only info left in his profile is his first name...

Anyone know what happened to sovblocgunfan??? Was he successful in restoring his Luger??? His album pics show up in the Random Pics occasionally, but the albums are still restricted...