Any have an idea?
Hi Great Site!!!:bigbye:
I have had an Erfurt Luger that has no serial number, or date stamp, or sight on the tip of the barrel (none of these things are missing it just seems the gun was manufactured that way. After searching the internet forever I have not found a single one like this. My Great Uncle on my fathers side brought it back during WW2 and I have the papers somewhere. I was hoping you can help me find out more about this gun or point me in the right direction to find out. I have no desire to sell this firearm but I would like to know whatever I can about it. I have included some pictures. Thanks, Mike |
sorry new to this
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here are the pics ...i hope
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Mike:
Certainly interesting. I'd like some more pictures particularly under the base of the barrel showing contour and any existing #s. A turned down artillery barrel? Let's see what the wizzards have to say about this one. Clearly out of my league. DJU |
i think these are the pics you want
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and all the numbers match #24 but there is nowhere on the gun with any more numbers then just #24
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Mike,
That is a very odd Luger. It looks as though it was possibly converted as a chamber/cartridge pressure test piece. The front of the receiver has been milled off to add the thicker chamber segment of the barrel. This would also account for the lack of a front sight, since it wouldn't be needed. If the "bring back" document shows it as "SN 24", it would add credence. BTW, the holster is for a Polish Radom. These are desirable by themselves. It's not uncommon to find "Bring Backs" with Radom or P.38 holsters. Ron |
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Please, what cal is this....thanks
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Cal
I belive it's a 9mm because it had 2 9mm shells in the bag it was in (green canvas) but i got rid of them 5+ years ago... I don't trust really old ammo and I haven't fired a round through it yet just in case i'm wrong plus i don't want to damage it. Even if this sounds weird I will say it...I feel that I did nothing to deserve being the first to shoot this since WWII it's to importiant to me. :soapbox: i'm off now.
I just think I would like to know some more of it's story. |
Take a pencil, try to drop t down the front of the barrel. If it won't go / is tight, its 30 luger (7.65mm) and if it falls down the barrel its 9mm (unless its been modifies, which is always possible, but not usual).
"Normally" you see the last 2 of the serial number, in this case the serial number IS 2 numbers so, its okay. Very odd barrel, since it is "set back", and as someone says, it DOES look like a proof barrel..... Ed |
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Without a chamber casting, you can't be sure of the cal....
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I think it is more likely that this was a damaged upper receiver that was salvaged by a resourceful gunsmith tinkerer :eek: (no pun related to Ed)... by machining off the face of the upper and using a homemade barrel... This is not a factory modification in my opinion.
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There is the same #24 on this barrell and I know for a fact nothing has been modified on this gun since my great uncle got it during WW2. If it was done prior to that then why stamp it with the 24? Also why no date stamp? Plus I don't know if the pictures show but the color dosen't differ between the barrel and the rest of the gun if it was aftermarket like you think wouldn't they have to redo the whole gun because as far as I can tell it all matches. Also kicking around your site I have noticed that the early Erfurt was notorious for bad (circle) machining around the safty but this is super smooth. I'm sure you all know way more then I do on the subject but before I start using this for target pratice I would like to be sure...do any of the guys on this forum know somewhere I can take it near Nashville, TN to find out? Thanks, Mike |
Mike, Fascinating pistol!
The holster you have for it is totally wrong. As Ron says it's for a German (Polish) Radom . The closure stid is missing from the top flap..the wire that is in there is causing damage to the underside of the holster. You may want to remove this to prevent more damage. Also I would not put a Luger magazine into the Radom magazine holder..It will not fit & will scrape away leather. If you want to work some sort of holster trade I am sure I could come up with a proper Luger holster for you. Thanks, Jerry Burney |
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To tell you the truth I have no idea what any of this is worth but I would be willing to trade only if it will help out your collection. I don't want to just give any part of this away to a dealer since it was no picnic on the back end for my Great Grandfather to get this, but as long as some of the guys on this forum say it's a good deal and it will help you out sure! :) |
Mike, OK..Sounds good. I have a nice brown WW1 holster that will match your Erfurt nicely. I have to put on a new closure strap and polish it up a little to make it nice for you. I will work it into the next few days.
If you are agreeable to the trade send your holster to my Yuma address in the meantime and I will get your Luger holster out ASAP. It's a nice one... Thanks, Jerry |
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Thanks, Mike |
If I were a betting man, I'd wager that this gun was done by a non-factory 'smith. All of the proof guns I have encountered (4-5 over the years) were prufung marked at the factory.
The lack of such marking is telling. Tom A. |
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Thanks, Mike |
Mike..No problem, Just thought I would try to help out a newbie.
Jerry Burney |
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I do appreciate the help and any info is more then welcome plus now that I have been kicking around the luger world for a few days I am sure this will become my latest expensive hobby and I'm sure we will do business in the future. thanks, Mike |
A Dutch luger with the front sight removed is known to exist. That one was a starting pistol conversion. Wouldn't surprise me if your conversion is somewhat similar: A P08 converted to a starting / signalling pistol. Could have been done by some arsenal with too much spare time on their hands.
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I have also noticed that there are no witness marks on the barrel or the base.:confused:
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New find
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This is weird but I haven't noticed it anywhere poking around the forum my luger has a "nub" under the barrel where I think the witness marks should be that fits into a knotch when reassembled I haven't seen this anywhere the barrel's I have seen are rounded there with the witness mark am I wrong or is this another mystery I can add to the list for this gun.
Thanks! Mike |
This is a WAG...but the lack of front sight and rounded conical barrel make me think it is intended to insert into something...maybe firing a blank cartridge...an igniter...or maybe a launcher for something...
I'm thinking that something might clamp onto the barrel, at the rear...or maybe the pistol itself is clamped into something...for signaling maybe??? Definitely something that bears investigation... ;) |
How about a collar coupled suppressor?
(It's as good a guess as any)! |
Mike..don't bother to look for witness marks..a large portion of your top Cannon/fork has been ground away and replaced by the oversized barrel. I would say at least 3/8ths or more. This means your chamber area..where the date would normally be... must be quite narrow.
I would consider this to be a severe structural breach bordering on what the heck were they thinking? Regardless of any serial # on the barrel...this is not a real Luger anymore. It has been severly comprimised. I don't remember from reading the thread if you ever mentioned the calibur. Is there a hole in the barrel? What size it it and is there a chamber area? Have you ever seated a round in it? I just re read the thread.. John Sabato says-by machining off the face of the upper and using a homemade barrel... This is not a factory modification in my opinion. This exactly my opinion and I sure would NOT fire a round in this weapon. Ed Tinker says this looks like a proof barrel and I disagree. Any Luger made with a stronger thicker barrel could start where they all do..no need to grind off the face of the top cannon in the breech area..simply make the barrel fatter. In your pistols case they ground away metal and then replaced it with the same amount. No gain there. Besides which.. a fatter stronger barrel defeats the purpose of proofing. A proof cartridge is made 50% hotter to proof the barrel. In other words.. with much more pressure will the type of barrel made and used stand up to extroidinary pressures? Makes no sense to make a bigger fatter barrel. This looks very much like a Bubba hack job to me. Another important aspect to consider, if this were some special factory test piece it would have SOME markings indicating something about it. I have a 1917 Imperial Navy that has a very large V stamped over the chamber. My belief is that it stands for Verschucs(spelling?) or test. Of course test can also be Pr�¼fung. This and one other 4" pistol I discovered in Europe were marked the same way. What they were testing I can't say for sure but it might have been the change from the truncated cone cartridge to the ogive shaped ones. The front sight is likely missing because bubba did not have the machine skills to mill it on there. He simply carved out a barrel from round stock and left the sight off to be silver soldered on later. __________________ Jerry Burney |
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"If you want to work some sort of holster trade I am sure I could come up with a proper Luger holster for you. Thanks, Jerry Burney " and as soon as I said no thanks you said "-Mike..No problem, Just thought I would try to help out a newbie." and now I don't have a real luger? then why advise me to come up with a "proper holster" for my "Fascinating pistol":banghead: wow! I should have just given you the holster and I could stay in the club" To anyone else at this forum I love it and it has opened a whole new avenue of intrest for me and I would like to stay but if i get booted I appreciate all the info and all the very nice comments" Thanks, Mike:cheers: |
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Really??
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Whay are you cutting into me so hard? |
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I hope my login works in the morning. Thanks to all Good night |
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Mike, Please don't be petulant and childish. Fascinating..yes of course. Any Luger this far from the norm is fascinating.
What I meant by not a real Luger is it's had parts of it ground away! Ok..to make you happy again I retract it. It's what's left of a real Luger. Now, let's address your holster issue as that must be more important for you than discussing the in's and outs of your pistol. I made you an offer..a more than fair offer by the way. You accepted. You Thought better of it and I said fine..Now you want to petulantly cry like a baby that I'm not treating you right? It was my belief that you might want the correct WW1 era holster for your pistol. Instead you plead for help! Please!!! someone tell me I did the right thing. In the collecting World I make trades everyday, I try to help where I can. I guess no good deed goes unpunished. You don't like what I have to say that's fine but lets stick to talking about the merits of the pistol and leave your emotions and feelings out of this. I'm not out to "get" you over some traders remorse you had. I thought I gave your pistol some serious thought and analysis. One other thing I will add about your Grandfather...he likely had the pistol for many years before you saw it or it came into your hands. Maybe decades. You don't know for certain what it's provenance is. Why would you get booted? You have acted properly and remained civil. Concentrate on investigating your pistol and get your paranoia in check. Jerry Burney |
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"petulant and childish "Please!!! someone tell me I did the right thing "Concentrate on investigating your pistol and get your paranoia in check. " "Now you want to petulantly cry like a baby that I'm not treating you right?" ...really man??? I never accepted your offer feel free to check the thread. Ok focusing on the gun.. I have asked 2 questions neither of them has been comented on by you so how am I the one off task? 1) my luger has a "nub" under the barrel where I think the witness marks should be that fits into a knotch when reassembled I haven't seen this anywhere the barrel's I have seen are rounded there 2)why would someone cut the reciver down re-machine a notch and a nub and forget to put a sight on the front with a bigger barrel and then take the time and energy to stamp a matching serial # on it ...to fool a luger collector? everyone that has ever held, seen, or been near a hand gun ever knows they are supposed to have a front sight. |
Grow up..have a good cry and get back to the subject at hand. Or not...up to you.
Jerry Burney |
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2)why would someone cut the reciver down re-machine a notch and a nub and forget to put a sight on the front with a bigger barrel and then take the time and energy to stamp a matching serial # on it ...to fool a luger collector? everyone that has ever held, seen, or been near a hand gun ever knows they are supposed to have a front sight. |
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For the record I have not insulted you once this entire time. You can not make that claim. Your rage has proven everything I have written. Goodnight. |
Mike, I believe the nub you speak of is the stop on the bottom of the barrel. The witness marks would be towards the muzzle end a quarter inch or so, This is the portion of your pistol that has been ground off.
There is actually no reason for witness marks on your barrel. These were ostensibly to align the sight to the top dead center. Yours has no sight to align. Why would someone do all these things? The longer you look into Lugers you will find many bored machinests did this and much more. Why? Because in days past these pistols were worth much less than they are today and were a machinists playground. Just as the thousands of 98 K rifles that were converted into hunting rifles. Now worth a couple hundred bucks but if not monkeyed with are worth thousands. As far as your serial # goes..It's difficult to argue one way or the other because they cancel each other out. Anyone capable of machining and installing this barrel certainly has a set of number dies laying around. Everything else is numbered 24..why not my new barrel? Who's to say? Here's another thing to speculate on..The chamber got ground away because the bored machinest couldn't quite get a proper fit on the new barrel in the chamber area so the easiest place to take up the slack is to grind away the receiver untill it snugs up. One can speculate untill the cows come home and it's mostly a guessing game of conjecture. All I know is no competent gunsmith would willingly grind away that much of the receiver, part of the structural integrity of the original design. Not no how, no way. Bubba did it. Jerry Burney |
Are the numbers on the barrel the same font/size as the other numbers on the pistol?
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