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Trying to find info on new luger purchase
Hello everyone, I am new to this site, but have always had an interest in the Luger pistols. I was just at the York, PA gun show this past weekend and purchased a DWM P08 Luger from Gene A Huber from www.firearmsbroker.com. Mr. Huber stated that the gun is all matching numbers (it appears to be) and was made in between 1940-42. It apparently came from an estate sale several months ago. I paid $895.00 for the gun. The serial number is 3572A. Finish and bore look pretty good. Grips are worn. No Nazi markings. I don't have any pictures yet, because I have not recieved the gun yet. I tried to look up the SN on this site, but could not find it. The web has also offered no pertinent info. Can anyone help me find out some info on this gun, most inportantly the manufacture date?
Any help is greatly appreciated. Duane |
Duane, take some photos of your Luger, when you get it and post them here. Make sure you include both sides, the top and the serial number on the front of the frame. Then we will be able to answer your questions. :)
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hello Duane.I am not good with Lugers but I know for sure if it is DWM it can not be made in 1940 or 42.If it was it would be nazi stamped and either Mauser made or Krieghoff but you have stated toggle is DWM .So ...there is something wrong with the description or with the gun.You will get more respond with the pics(always)Ihope this helps a little.Regards Kris
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I'm hoping to have it by next week and I will post some pictures of it. When I inspected it, it had the DWM on the top of the frame and all of the serial numbers that I could see appeared to match. Knowing very little about Lugers, other than I wanted one, I asked the seller when it was made. He repyed 1940 through 1942, however, I never asked him how he came up with that date range. It didn't look bad and I was really just looking for a shooter, but I figured if I found a nice collectable specimen that would be great.
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Well I finally got the Luger. Here are some pictures. The local gun store seems to think it is a "1920s commercial gun." I'm sure its not a very valuble specimen, but all I was really looking for is a shooter. I would just like to know some more about it. The caliber is 9mm. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Duane http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0621.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0623.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0624.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0625.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0626.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0627.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0628.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0632.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0633.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0634.jpg http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...9/CIMG0631.jpg |
Its mismatched (rear toggle is the wrong #), and the safety numbers look wrong.
Will the gun clean up better, i.e. the bluing splotches, is it rougher or just oil or is it splotches? I don't know Gene, will he reimburse your money to you? I would expect that a gun in this condition, mismatched would sell for between $700- $800 maximum at the PA shows. Ed |
I just cleaned it. So some of it might be oil, but most is splotchy. I actually paid $895. I don't want my money back, its a shooter, which is what I wanted. However, for those of you who run into this dealer, beware of what he tells you. Just interested in what I can find out about it. My goal is to start a Luger collection with this one as my shooter. That way I can not shoot the more expensive ones. Any idea on a date of manufacture?
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First Luger is not easy. If its main body comes from a military, it bears no military stamps. If it's commercial, no C/N either. And so many numbers are explicit.
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Duane,
You have a rather odd luger there. As Alvin says, no military proofs, the frame is pre-1913(no stock lug), no "Crown N" commercial proofs. Most numbers match with the exception of the rear toggle link. The safety has been force matched. This is weird, since it looks correct otherwise. Is the barrel serial numbered or marked? Are there any "Crown N" stamps on it anywhere? Ron |
Strange :confused:
The frame looks pre 1913 millitary, as previusly said, no stock lug and also I noticed a later added hold open. I thougt that would never been found on comercial Lugers ?? No year mark would tell us 1909 but the rest of the markings wont fit to that ? :nono: Also the ser. number would fit in the 1909 production, Right ? I would guess this is a first contract 1909 with later armorers or factory replaced and force matched upper. |
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Hold open has been added, note the proof on the right side of the frame.
I also see a crown N on the toggle. also: Is that a proof mark on the back side of the frame? Vern |
It would be interesting to se some pic underneath the barrel, and on top of the front sight blade to see if that has been replaced.
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Thanks.
The proof mark on top of the front sight base means tha the front sight has been replaced, most likely at the same time the hold open was added. There are no ser# on the barrel and the alignment mark at the front sight is missing which tells us that the barrel is likely a reaplacement. On couple of those pics it looks like there is a faint proof mark on the right sight of the chamber which is correct. Also it is possible this pistol has an early reblue as the pin for the hold open should be in white, not blue. That could also explain the faint proof marks. Please correct me if I�´m wrong.:cheers: |
Just by looking at it, it looks like it has been re-blued at some point a while ago. Although the dealer claimed that it had not. The dealer clearly misrepresented it to me, which is disheartening. I'm hoping to ballpark a year of manufacture just for my information.
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Well: At least the frame is 1909-1913 military, as can be seen by the added hold open and replaced front sight, which was done in 1913, but the top makes it a bit confusing. 1909 is the only year not having the year stamped on top of the chamber, but then the proof marks should be on the left side of the chamber. Also most of the numbered parts should have the numbers "hidden" for that year.
In 1910 the proof marks are moved to the right side, and the year stamped on top of the chamber. I am not sure about the serial numbers for 1910-1913 but as far as I know yours could fit in the 1909 ser# range. If you look at my album you can see how the markings are suposed to be on 1909 P08 http://forum.lugerforum.com/album.php?albumid=60 |
Thanks for all the information Ingvarg,
It doesn't look like anyone removed any of the markings, I don't know why they would anyway. I wonder if it was "doctored" in any way. At any rate hopefully it will shoot ok. |
I believe that your Luger has already been ballparked as to the year... it is definitely pre 1913 and post 1908, but I doubt you will get it much closer than that. The gun has been refinished in my opinion, as evidenced by the lack of use marks on the back of the frame that are usually caused by the toggle... you really can't tell when it may have been refinished.
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With the frame pre 1913 without stock lug, the safety would be more 'correct' if not stamped 72. Looks like the previous owner desided to put 72 on this part himself.
This is a usefull thread regarding the front sight; http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ht=front+sight I don't think the Luger is that bad.. it has had a long life and would make a great 'shooter'. |
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So 1909-1913 is the closest we can find out for now. A bit of a mystery sometimes makes this more fun. Refinished or not, you got a great and interesting pistol there. I would reccomment that you detail strip it, inspect and clean througly. Clean up the pitting and enjoy shooting one of the most fun pistols you can have.:thumbup: btw. Lugers are ammo sensitive so it could teke some tests to find out what ammo yours like. So....Enjoy !!!!!!:thumbup: |
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And with right ammo I�´m sure it will shoot great. After at least 25 years as a wall hanger mine worked perfectly after a clean up ,as well as a frends 1906 navy there had been sitting for 30-40 years. Just a qick inspection and a couple of drops of gun oil, and then I shot around 70 rounds through it without a single falure.:thumbup: |
Thanks for all of the info guys. Glad to here that I didn't get ripped off. Other than the sparatic rust spots, it looks ok. The other day I took it apart completely, cleaned it, reassembled it, and it seems to function fine. We'll see how it does at the range if I can ever get a free day to go. I was planning on reloading cast bullets for it, so I expect a trial and error period. I figured that the cast lead would be gentler on the barrel than the copper jacket ones hopefully extending the service life of the barrel. Do you guys think I should have it re-finished again, or is it not really worth it? Since it has probably been re-finished in the past, it shouldn't have any furthure affect on value I'm guessing.
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Refinishing usually cost up to same $$$ than a allready refinished Luger so I guess thats not worth it.
Mine was a bit pitted and i cleaned up the spots with a sharp razor blade. (actually a lot of them) Just take care to cut the rust carefully of, not scrape it of. Doing so you wont scratch the blueing. Then maybe you could use a cold blue and 1000 steel woll to fresh up the finish and then add thin layer of gun grease over it. Then wipe of the excess of the grease and polish the gun with a sylicon cloth. Mine turned up to be a real beuty after this method and the guy who sold it to me hardly recogniced it afterwards.:thumbup: btw. I would be interested to know how the cast bullet hand loads work for you and maybe the recipe, as I,m going on the same path as soon as I get the molds.:cheers: |
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Well, I went to the range today to fire a few handguns including my new Luger. I loaded some 9mm ammo into the magazine and ran the bolt forward and...the gun is not 9mm as advertised! After the bolt failed to go into battery I tried again with a fresh round. Same thing. A closer inspection of the inside of the chamber revealed that the gun appears to be chambered in 7.65. After comparing the muzzle to the muzzle on my friends 9mm P38, it appears that the barrel diameter is a bit smaller. So, I guess my question is, were Lugers only made in 9mm and 7.65? or were there other chamberings? Now I have to scrap my reloading of 9mm and plan on 7.65 or whatever it is. Anybody know a good source of 7.65 brass?
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The .223 Rem is about ~.010" smaller diameter at the base than 30 Luger, but fire-forming with a light load will expand the cases to fit your chamber. Just my $.02...YMMV...I am not responsible for any blah blah... :D |
brass...
Just a quick question... why not the 5.56 mil stuff? All it seems you'd have to do is anneal it?? I'm not a reloader, so I plead ignorance... Best to you, til...lat'r...GT:cheers:
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I believe (if not correct me) the 5.56 brass has thicker case walls then .223 Remington same goes for .308 rem. brass and 7.62 NATO brass. .223 rem is not as hot as NATO spec ammo, .223 rem. runs at about 3000 fps where 5.56 NATO runs at about 3250 fps in my AR 15 20" barrel.
You can tell by the head stamp on the case, NATO will have the circle with a cross in it. In a combat situation all NATO country's that run across another country's ammo that find the circle with a cross in it know it's good ammo. Also SAMMI states that firing 5.56mm in a .223 rem. chamber is an unsafe ammunition chamber combination. My AR 15's love XM193 from Lake City that's box and sold by Federal, good stuff but expensive. I also love the 5.56 brass for reloading for my AR 15's it was plentiful but harder to find now. Just my .02 |
Speaking of military ammunition..
We (as in the Norwegian Army) has now replaced the regular Nato rounds with "environmental friendly" non-lead core bullets. Let's call them 7.62mmBellona, 9mmBellona and 5.56mmBellona from the organization who pushed trough that lead bullet's should no longer be allowed. (They deserve to be connected to this little story) There are so many downsides with this new ammunition, I don't know where to start.. -It's a health hazard for those shooting them. I have fired about 100k 7.62Nato rounds over the years, and never had a headache after a day at the range. But one day with 2-300 rounds of this non-lead ammunition, made my head pounding. It is believed to come from the gasses, many experience nausea or headache the following day(s). -They are loaded 'too hot' and make all of our weapon types less reliable. MG's has blown up, MP5 (the locking plate for these rolls get's beaten up and falls out) and even the trusty A3and Glock some times fail on these. Our new rifle however, the H416 seems to handle the ammunition quite well. -They wreck the bore, especially on the Glock -They are far more expensive -Less precise But what frustrates me the most, is that without proper testing, they send 300k of this x.xxBellona **** directly down to Afghanistan to be used in combat by our fighting forces. Luckily the guys there decided (as with anything else that is unknown) to test it thoroughly before use. They experienced that several rounds didn't going off, some was too weak to cycle properly and MG's blew up. At least one soldier was injured by this.. btw. This has nothing to do with military ammunition, but lead shotgun ammunition is also prohibited here in Norway, for environmental reasons. I'm a hunter and find this a very ironic. I have wounded so many birds by using steel, that I just don't have the conscience to use it any more. Hunters have been wounded by ricochets and it's a question of time before a shotgun will blow up by the increased pressure. Sorry if my outburst was somewhat off topic:) |
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I would expect the military brass is made with thicker walls intentionally, to lessen the chance of a blowout...while commercially, the manufacturers want to hold costs down as much as possible... Case wall thickness (*not* neck thickness) only seems to be an issue for those of us concerned with 'cartridge conversion'... BTW: I am not stating that you won't have to neck ream .223 commercial...only that you may not need to... Off -topic = I can recall back when only Berdan primed cases were available for the 7.63 Mauser and 7.65 Luger, there were all kinds of ways to remove the spent primers...some really crude...("fill case with water and use a tight fitting dowel to hydraulically eject the primer")... Disclaimer: I am not an expert on any of this, these are just my observations from practical experience... :) Lessee...What was this thread about?... :D |
I sent the dealer an email last night. No response yet. Here is a copy of the email message sent to him:
From: "Duane Urban" <dtu2179@comcast.net> To: <email@firearmsbroker.com> Subject: Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:33 PM Hello, I bought the German Luger from you at the York PA gun show on 2/22/09. When I purchased the gun you told me that it had been manufactured between 1940-1942. Research into this gun with the assistance of the members of Luger.com has shown that this is not true. The gun was actually manufactured between 1909 and 1914. In addition, you advertised the gun as 9mm, which is what went on the state police paperwork here in Maryland, this was also untrue. The gun is actually chambered in 7.65 Luger. Please respond back to this email and address these issues. Duane Urban |
For anyone who is interested, here is the dealers web site. Based on my recent experiance, this guy is NOT :grr:someone I would do business with again. Just a warning for those in the PA area.
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So yesterday I got the 30 Luger Fiocci ammo and took the Luger to a friends house to shoot. Would not function. So I am asking for my money back from the dealer.
Now, I am looking to replace it with a late 30s - 40s era Luger with Nazi markings. Doesn't have to be a safe queen. I would like all matching and definately must must shoot/function flawlessly. If any one has one of those that they are getting rid of let me know. |
You have lots of good reasons to get your money back, but not if it doesn't function with fiocchi ammunition.
They have a reputation for notoriously low powered ammunition. Try reloading the brass with a known medium handload before you give up on the pistol. They will likely function the pistol properly. |
Thanks John. But, I think I would rather send it back and put that money towards the gun that I really wanted. I had wanted a nazi marked Luger that was decently priced and that I could shoot from time to time. And 9mm. I figured that the ammo was low powered, which was why it wouldnt function right, but I've had enough of this gun. It was sold to me under false pretenses anyway. Any ideas on a nazi marked replacement?
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Put your "wants" in the want to buy forum... you will find dealing with forum members a much more pleasant experience. It won't be long before you find a Luger that meets your requirements.
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