DWM 1911 Namibia
 

I have a DWM 1911 Luger. Originally confiscated by a Boer Sergeant in Namibia (South West Africa) in the 1914 war between the Britts and Germany in Namibia. As South Africa was a British Colony, the Boers had to join the fight. The Boer Sergeant was my great grandfather.
The Luger was taken from a German Sergeant who was commander of a machine gun post. (Or so the story goes)
The serial number is 199 and all the parts have 99 on it.
At the back of the grip (bottom) is LP 366
Can anyone tell me about this LP 366 and what it means?
Piet (South Africa)

Piet
1911 DWM, sn 199f, marked LP / 336 on its back strap. This signifies: Landespolizei Deutsch-Sudwest Afrika. These were issued to the Schutztruppe officers of Deutsch Sud-West-Afrika (see Central Powers Pistols page 279 and 280.

The Landespolizei Deutsch-Sudwest Afrika Lugers consisted of DWM and Erfurt military Lugers dated 1911.

This is a rare treasure that is a part of history. Only a few are reported in the United States, Please post photographs.
Jan

What is the suffix on the front of the frame?

Piet, you have a real treasure as Jan says. Like you, I have a 1911 P08 property marked to the Landespolizei DSWA. Mine is a close cousin to yours being only four numbers off, LP370.

1911Namibia
 

Some photos of 1911 DWM LP 366.
The WR number was "punched" by some idiot, to take it up in the South African "Wapenregister" or Weapon Register, when all firearms had to be registered. (I do not know when)
I could not get a good photo of the suffix on the front of the frame - I will try again later.
Piet

Amazing that the numbers are so near to each other! Do you have other information on these Lugers?

Piet, it's a beautiful piece. I would bet that the full serial number is 199f. Is there a serial number on the magazine? If so are the numbers small or large?
Do you have any details of the story of your great grandfather and where he was when he took the pistol?

It could be an f under the 199 It is very small. I will try to send a photo later.
We do not know where the incident with the German sargeant happened. The weapon is in good condition. I still have the holster and a few bullets, as well as the small steel tool.

Will you post photos of the holster and report any markings in or on the holster? May we also see photos of the tool and any markings it has?

Piet1911Namib
 

George
See photos of front of frame
As you said it would be! f
I am not full time on internet. No markings that I can find on Holster accept ink mark in holster 190.
Magazines numbers248 f and 432 f

Piet
thanks for the excellent photographs. The book Central Powers Pistols has some information on these 1911 dated Lugers and the Deutsch Sud-West-Afrika Shutztruppe during World War I (pages 279 and 280). German SW Africa surrendered on 9 July 1915 with 1,331 killed.
Jan
The Great War in Africa by Byron Farwell is an excellent reference on the conflict between South Africa and German SW Africa during World War I.
As George said the suffix is an "f".

Thank you Jan. You have a name that is common to us. "Jan" is as Afrikaans as Koos or Piet. Thanks for your input.
Piet

George,
The letters on the magazines are about 2,5mm high (stamped in the wooden base)
248 f and 432 f (I have mastered to recognise the f - thanks) What does it means. Has it anything to do with the proof marks on the frame (2x fancy F's with Crowns on top and an eagle)
Piet

piet, the front suffix is totally differnet than the proof marks on the right. At the time, every 10,000 lugers were made, a new suffix was added, so;

serial number 1 sn 2 sn 3 .... sn 9999 sn 1a sn 2a .... 9999a up to sn 9999e sn 1f sn 2f up to your numbers 248f etc.


Ed

Piet, thank you for the additional photographs. You give the data bases a great deal of good information with what you have shared with us so far. Mr Jeff Noll's book "Imperial German Regimental Marking" lists three 1911 DWM P08's unit marked to the Landespolizei DSWA. Adding mine and yours as well as your two magazines the list is...
9656e LP157
9772e LP370
9844e LP343
166f LP335
199f LP366
248f mag only
432f mag only

There are also six 1911 Erfurt P08's recorded that are marked to the Landespolizei DSWA.

Piet & George,
* This may be of interest from a previous thread:
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ghlight=Africa
Respectfully,
Bob

Period documents indicate there were 442 P08s in the inventory of the LPDSWA in October 1912. With this new one, I have recorded 18 -- about 4% of the original number. This is a relatively high "survival rate" compared with other German police units. These will be covered in some detail in my forthcoming book History Writ in Steel.

Thanks very much for posting this Piet.

Piet
More information on the German SW Africa Police Lugers:
German Southwest African Police Lugerkeoki7 http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=714

1911 DWM ID and value? http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ghlight=Africa
Jan

Amazing, where do you guys get all the knowledge! I cant ceep up with all the information

The saga of 1911 Nabib -new info
 

I must say I am overwhelmed by the responses so far.
I am going to ask more questions. Now the ammunition!

I just sit here stunned by this entire thread, it is of what dreams are made of....thanks so much for sharing......

Piet, the early conical bullets dated March 1914 are very rare. Here in the New World we seldom find anything older than 1917 and these are all FMJ (full metal jacket). With the introduction of the Trommelmagazin in 1917 new 9mm round nose fmj ammo was introduced. The early conical lead bullet ammo and their boxes are super rare. Of course your war down there ended early so what is there predates August 1914.

Thanks to the guys that looked after the pistol for 98 years! Hope I can give their names

Really a beautiful rig! The condition is amazing. What a piece of history!

"With the introduction of the Trommelmagazin in 1917 new 9mm round nose fmj ammo was introduced." I believe the round head bullet was developed for another reason as well..the Allies considered the conical shaped bullet to be a DUMDUM and thusly illegal according to the Geneva Convention. If I am not mistaken this was after the war started.

Jerry Burney

George, Jan, and other contributors
Well I feel very stupid, because I realiase that I did not now enough to really preserve this treasure. I did wrap the old ammo box with bubble plastic (also the pistol) for the last few years, but after hearing from you and others, I realise that something special should be done to preserve and take care of the aging problem. The box is still strong, but the paper on the ammo box, as well as the piece acting as the seal, is not in a good condition. I decided to think a bit on everything that I have ecperienced the last few days through the Lugerforum, before moving to the next level. I want to share as much as possible info, and I also still need a lot of information. I will post it in due course. Piet

Old ammunition
 

I was thinking to try and clean the outside of the copper casing of the bullets. It looks as if the dark stains can be a kind if oxidation of the copper casing. Should I try it? (see previous) photographs of ammunition and box)
I am still wondering about the preservation of the box as well.
Piet

Piet, This is collectable rare ammunition. If you would like to diminish it's value by half and essentially ruin it..clean it right up!
I suggest chuck it in a drill with some steel wool...They will be as shiney as a new penny!

Now on the other hand.. if you want to preserve these precious artifacts that have been entrusted to your care...Gently put them back into the box they came out of and do not molest them further.

Jerry Burney

Jerry,
Thanks for the warning. I will tuck it away safely!
Piet

Piet, You are a good man and a responsible collector/caretaker. Preserving these artifacts is a big responsibility, thanks for taking it seriously.

Jerry Burney

:order:
Jerry, I am glad he reads english well, cuz a non-english speaker may have thought you were serious and cleaned them :eek:

:D


Ed

Ed, I usually throw my ammo in a cement mixer with some nuts & bolts to knock off the hard stuff...saves on labor.
OK..Yer right..I need to stop being a comediun!

Jerry Burney

Ed, Jerry, :roflmao:
I had a good laugh, especially about the cement-mixer part!
We thought Africa was a tough country, but we can still learn something from the America's.
I will be off the air till beginning March. (travelling without a lap-top computer)
Piet

Piet, I think that Ed & Jerry are the non-English speakers. Either that or their kids have introduced them to "text-talk" (eg cuz, yer, etc). As an avid BBC listener, I realized years ago, that we Americans, don't really speak true English. Perhaps we should call it "Americance". TH

Thomas,
Thanks for the reply. My home language is also not English, and I can make a fool of myself on short notice - hope I can polish up on it while enjoying a great subject - Lugers!
Piet

New questions from Piet
 

I spent the Sunday afternoon to take some new fotographs.
George, I managed to get the serial numbers of the magazines on a photo. Had to use chalk dust. The one "f" on sn 248 looks a bit flatter than the other one. The man with the punch was maybe looking around at the time.
Hope you can see the sizes you wanted.
The tool was not so easy. I think the marking tool was a bit skew when it hit. It seems as if the mark is deeper on the one side.
I use my imagination an see a "fancy" F with a crown on top - the same as the proof marks on the Luger. The tool is in a very good condition, and I can see the original machining marks on the steel.
I only use the tool to loosen the screws to take of the wooden grips for cleaning inside (Only done that twice in about 10 years) What other use is there?

Piet,
The hole in the middle of the tool fits over the follower button on the mag which makes it easier on the thumb to pull down.

Nice, the ammunition appears to have been made at the Spandau state arsenal.

Gerben,
Any more information on Spandau? What makes you think that the ammo was manufactured there?
Piet

Piet,

Basically, the 'S' code on the head stamp and the 'S' and 'Sp' references on the labels.

Magazine markings
 

It seems as if one has to become a specialist in photography before one can study Lugers. I cannot find any other markings on the magazines (or maybe I haven't loked well enough?) Should there be?
Piet

Piet, the hole in the loading tool can be hooked behind the magazine button. It creates a thumb rest so one can push the magazine spring down using the tool. Really helps loading and unloading the magazine.