Questions about a 1916 DWM
 

I just want to know what I really have. I picked this up for 750 as a shooter. All of the numbers seem to match, the take down pin has no number I can find. I don't see any straw on it and the grips and the clip have no markings but appear correct. Stories are stories but it was supposed to come from the bring back collection of a WWII US general. I'll try to post the story as I get it but like I say stories are stories so they mean little without proof.

Here is a link to the photos, I was going to upload them here but the limits are so small I think it kills the detail and I wanted people to be able to look over any details they might need so I just put the good the bad and the ugly in a folder on one of my servers. There are four pages of photos and most are pretty close to raw if you want a close up just click on the mid size image.

http://www.moviephotoforums.com/phot...t=565&ppuser=0

The story I got was this gun came from this collection. Stories are stories so that is just BBQ information.

Brig. General (Ret) Sidney Christiansen (A.K.A. Sid Christie) was a deputy chief of the U.S. Army Ordnance during the time of design of M-60 machinegun and .308 cartrige. After he retired worked for the U.S. Navy in San Diego, where became a very popular between gun enthusiasts and competitive shoters. One of the very rare pistols he brought after WWII from Europe ended up at the Smithsonian. It is .45 Polish combat pistol Wz.35 RADOM (A.K.A. VIS). General issue RADOM was in 9mm; only a five .45s were made for the evaluations.

Never heard of a Radom in .45!

Like I say thats just a story, I have no idea if there is any truth to it or not.

This is what a google search showed up on the 45 possibility, but I'm more interested what people see in the photo's just to know what I have and how much might be original. It really is of no consequence since it is a shooter to me but thought it might be interesting to here what people think.

A .45 ACP version was developed but never made it into production (it was shown to Argentinean officials in 1937). .22 LR variant was also made, but there is no information available on the amount produced and the only known specimen is on display in Hungarian Army Museum in Budapest. Trials were also conducted with a full-auto Vis equipped with larger magazines and a detachable shoulder stock. Plans for this version were scrapped when Mors submachine-gun was developed.

From those pix, the finish of bigger parts look ok to me. The grip panels are replacement. The TD level..... I don't know, should it be numbered? --- yes, should be numbered to the gun.

Why did this thing have so many "X"? Gift from a Red Army general? Zukov? :)

I see one X stamped under the grip area but mostly W's and F's. Where do you see any other X's?

The other one is near the trigger area on the frame.

I guess your going to tell me the russians stamped the gun twice with two different fonts? ROFL

It may be what you like, but its "preferred" that you post HERE on this forum so members don't have to leave the forum, in addition, many times on "hosted" sites, folks then delete the pictures and part of the learning is seeing the pictures.

I know I sound negative and apoligize for it, but clicking on each link to find out what you're looking for, well, many folks won't do it. sorry


Ed

You have at least one Imperial Military, I have not gotten one yet :) Please copy a few key pictures, plus the stamp under the barrel over here.... some collectors have tons of these things, they knew it by heart. Hopefully, they will tell us.

Ed I have no problem putting the photos on this site, I really wanted people to be able to see detail. I had posted other images on here and they looked like thumbnails is the only reason I posted them that way. My apology, if it makes any difference they are on one of my many servers and I can assure you nothing is loaded on your machine at all.

P08 is totally reblued. Probably heat bluing here in the US.

George can I ask how you can be sure of this? I own about 100 revolvers and can't pick out a reblue from an original even on some I know that have been blued that are older then this is.

Max, All Imperial era Lugers, both DWM and Erfurt, were rust blued with small parts in straw. The process required that the interior of the pistol stay in the "white". A quick perusal of your photos indicated a 1916 DWM Luger with small parts blued and all interior surfaces blued. These two factors would indicate a gun that had been completely and improperly reblued.

The color tone on this pix does look like rust blue..... especially on the huge picture (that site allows huge picture).

OK fair enough, couldn't be the color of the light or angle or the lens and reflection? I only ask because there is no blue in the pitting and they did a good job not to blue those areas from what I can see. Oh and all the other numbers including the firing pin match. The only exception is the take down pin which has no number at all. Looks to be in good shape mechanically just needs cleaning and I plan to take it to the range and shoot the hell out of my shooter. :)

http://www.moviephotoforums.com/phot...ium/000021.jpg

That's one reason gun inspection must be done on very good light source, better under sunlight. If I remembered right, stamps on barrel should show halo. Picture taking is similar, but avoiding direct strong light on the gun, using red or sky blue as background, showing overall, edges, stamps, marks, and numbers.

If George is right, this one gets me though.

Some how this got off track, you guys are looking for a collector and want to point out any flaw you see or perceive for some reason. I paid 750 for a shooter and was just looking to see if anyone had any words of wisdom instead of attacking anything and everything. IT'S NOT A COLLECTOR. I thought I made that clear.

Yes that site that allows the huge images, the guy that owns it has been in the internet forum business for several years longer then this forum has been around and I hear the guy has made pretty good money off being forward thinking and understanding that what is considered big today will be poor quality tomorrow. I heard one of his sites he built 6 years ago sold for stupid money because he applied that thinking when he started it. :)

Max, I think what important is not a particular single gun, or $750, or it has flaw or not. What important is we know it's what it is. Refurbished, fine, we need to know why it's refurbished. Learn a little bit from every gun, to dig out more from $750 besides shooting fun. IMO.

Alvin between my years in the military and just a small part of my own collection I have fired no less then 20k rounds including doing service on a 109 firing 155mm howitzers. I consider these to be childs play. This site has some very good information on it, it also has a problem and IMHO the reason it hasn't grown and never will. Have a good day.

I still prefer things that go around, they always go bang.
http://www.moviephotoforums.com/phot...um/table05.jpg

Nice guns. I prefer smaller stuffs, wristwatches over wall clocks, pistols over rifles (let alone cannons). But that's pure personal taste.

I am a former Security Information Manager, and that is why I suggest not having your pictures somewhere else; YOU can state any thing you want about your security and the reasons you posted your pictures but facts are that there are a lot of bad sites out there.

But your other answers, all you've been is helped, so why the comments about our site?

Play nice or don't play here. Be advised that the luger collecting community is small, you can play nice here or try to show up on several other gun boards and you'll find the same moderators and members.

Ed

Max,

This forum and Jan Still's forum consists of primarily Luger collectors. Some of the members are recognized as the foremost experts in the world. Lugers are the most boosted and faked firearms around due to there value, which can reach 6 figures in the right instance.

Our primary goal, outside of collecting, is to inform and to educate both ourselves and novice collectors.

No one likes to hear negatives, but we are not here to give warm and fuzzy positives just to make everyone feel good about their latest aquisitions. We point out the problems, both for your information, and to inform others as to what is correct, or is not correct. This information will hopefully prevent either you, or another prospective collector from losing hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on a faked, boosted or refinished Luger.

An expertly faked or boosted Luger can fool the most experienced and knowledgable collector. The tiniest mark can often raise a red flag. That's the reason every piece is checked and critiqued.

The price you paid is in line with your Lugers condition. You didn't hit the lottery, but you didn't get hurt either.

BTW, The Luger foum, The P.38,PP-PPK forum and Jan Still's forum are amongst the most highly rated and mannerly firearms forums on the internet. We pride ourselves on this accomplishment.

Ron

No actually Ed I reviewed about 25 other posters after I posted this. I found that there was a pattern of attacks. Just the way I see it. As far as your security Ed, I dare you to even tell me the OS on that machine hosting those images.

Ron I started out saying it was a shooter, as far as fair price goes I think I did great compared to the ads I read on this site in the classified. I didn't expect an attack for a 750 dollar gun. To me it's pocket change and while I may have been proud that I didn't get taken I feel as though some WAG's were made about the gun. It may not be a collector, but it may not be what was presented here either. You say your experts, I still remember a day when a Colt expert told me they never made a python in 38 caliber with less then a 8 inch barrel, just so happens I own one with a 2.5 inch barrel with the letter from Colt to prove it is a factual gun. I didn't argue the point, after all he was an expert. One thing forty years of collecting guns has convinced me of, is never say never. You see gun makers don't live by any rules, be them mauser or who ever. http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/...ilies/rofl.gif

I do not know who this sport is, so if anyone knows him, he can be told he's banned, because He's a jerk.


If there is a "pattern of attacks", lets all be nicer, but I am not going to waste my time on a guy like this.


Ed

I just reviewed the first few posts in this thread. Looks like the intention of the topic was to start a presentation, not ID, nor help wanted...... but you confused us by saying "I want you guys to see details", so we interpreted your intention that way. When a gun is posted publicly, that almost implied you're ready for various comments. That's normal.

I have reviewed every post as objectively as I could as well. I can see nothing but attempts to provide information on the gun and help him understand what he had.

I cannot see where any offense could be construed other than that I believe he thought he had purchased much more than he paid for, (i.e. original blue) and was somewhat miffed by the really check.

This just spiralled down with this guys refusal to back down from his accusations.
Sad

That boy's pretty full of himself...

He didn't post the Luger to get feed back. He posted it to impress us and to get his ego(key word) stroked. When it didn't work out to his liking, he got pissed. He wanted to here that he scored a $2000 luger at a shooter price.

I have joined, and reviewed many firearms forums. It's members like him that keep me coming back to our 3 forums.