Artillery Barrel Specs
 

(NOTE: This thread was my first post here on Lugerforum, in February of 2009. Since then, Sturgess and Gortz have published their "The Borchardt And Luger Automatic Pistols", a definitive volume containing 14 pages of LP-08 'blueprints', including the artillery barrel. A DVD of the complete works, including full-size 2008 x 3035 pixel photos, many in color, and consisting of 1888 PDF pages is available from Simpson Ltd for $35 and $15 S&H.

Written October 2014 by Rich B. 'sheepherder'/'postino')

Hello!

I'm re-barreling a commercial Luger with what I hope will look like an artillery barrel...I've done barrels before (pic of Lahti below) and have already started on a Luger Artillery barrel...

I can pull the approximate dimensions from pics here and elsewhere, but a "print" would be helpful...Is there one available anywhere online???

Thank You! :)

Quite well, thank you! :thumbup:

Slow...I can only work on my day off, and Sunday...slow...like molasses in...now... :)

Any and all dimensions would be appreciated! :thumbup: At the present time, I am just copying pics and using the general measurements off a 10cm barrel. And some book extracts.

I'll let you know when I start tapering! This is just roughing the general shape out, for now. :D

I'll turn down the front next, then shape the front sight base. After that, the rear sight "sleeve" and base. That'll kill a day... :rolleyes:

I have never seen a print of the artillery barrel, so if you find one, please let me know.

There is a forum member called Makarov (first name is Vladimir) who has done extensive work in 3D graphics. He has completed a 3D model of the artillery Luger... perhaps you could contact him and see if he can provide you a couple of dimensioned prints to help in your project.

Remarkably, all of his work has been done by reverse engineering prints and graphic images of the Luger. He lives in Russia, where possession of a Luger is forbidden.

You could also order one of my Blueprint CD's for many of the critical dimensions... unfortunately, the rear sight base on the artillery model is not included... the CD contains all of the dimensioned prints for the P.08 model.

BTW, where are YOU located?

PayPal transfer completed! :thumbup:

I'm in the US. ;)

Pulling the dimensions off an old 9mm barrel + pics from here and Gunbroker.com should be close enough for my loose standards... :D

Quite a bit, I'd say!!! Thank You!!! :thumbup:

Edit: Rick - What do you get for a side-to-side measurement of the rear sight "sleeve"??? Horizontal width, so to speak...

Still whittling down the excess metal... :)

Rich, what kind of lathe and other metal working machines do you have? Just curious.

I have the same Craftsman 12" x 36" lathe as Rick W.

Yeah, picture shows are fun! I'll be putting these on the CNCGuns site as a sort of How To... :D

I had to sell all my real tools (Bridgeport, South Bend, Miller)...This is one of those Chinese 3in1 machines (and a rotary indexing head)... :rolleyes:

Cut the lower radius's [radii???] today...

art. bbl...
 

Wow, pretty neat! I really, really like the step by step..... BTW, having Rick W. in your corner is a big plus... he's been there, done that, on most all of the BBL projects... We share the same facination for how the process was done in "The old days!" Looks to me as if you're right on track....More, more, more! :) Best to all, til....lat'r....GT:jumper::jumper:

Great minds think alike...Perhaps he's my long lost brother... :D

Cut down the rear sight slot; cut the front sight base...

I am very interested in how you intend to cut the remainder of the front barrel band... and then then merge it with the small end of the barrel taper... take plenty of photos please including the actual cutting operation...

Ok when are you ramping up production for custom barrels for all our shooters?

J/k;)

I'm wondering how I'm going to do that, too... :p

I know I don't!!! :D

But thanks for the visual pictures! I'm working from a dozen or so posted pictures, and an old 100mm barrel I have on hand...

I'll keep cutting metal and we shall see what comes out!!! ;)

I'm looking at John's Blueprint CD (Thank You, Sir!) and I find it puzzling that DWM (and the other P-08 contractors) used 20tpi for their 18mm barrel thread (and 55�º for the thread angle instead of 60�º)...

20tpi isn't a metric size; John's print clearly shows that the thread pitch is 1.270mm...which works out to 0.04999985in...for comparison, 20tpi is 0.050in...Too close to be coincidence...

And it's not just Germany...The Swedish/Finnish Lahti shown in the first post also uses an 18mm x 20tpi thread...

Does anyone know why the Europeans would use an inch thread pitch??? The closest Metric thread pitch is 1.25mm...Which is quite common...and works out to 0.04921245in...Close, but no cigar...

On an unrelated note, while digging through my parts boxes from the '80's, I noticed that I have one of my home-made 150mm barrels lying around...It's been shot, and I can see some marks from the breech block, but I have no idea why it's still here...the two Lugers I owned back in the mid-'90's both had 150mm barrels on them when I sold them...

I guess it's true...A mind is a terrible thing to waste... :(

Hi,

The DWM factory, part of Ludwig Loewe & Cie., were involved in standardization processes, a bit of a Loewe hobby, so to say.

Ludwig Loewe himself spent many days in the USA, studying the American production methods and introducing the processes in Germany. This was the forerunner of the later German DIN standardization norm.

In other words: German industrial standardization is based upon American production methods.

Actually, the 55�º thread pattern is the British Whitworth form originally proposed in 1841 and subsequently adopted as the British Standard Whitworth. It was the best standard in Europe at the time and, as noted, used by several/most manufacturers. The American Unified Course standard uses the 60�º thread angle. Even the Luger grip screws are Whitworth pattern.

I think I can guesstimate/grind 55�º instead of 60�º and set my cross feed also... ;)

I got some more done today, along with finishing my taxes...As per popular request, here's more pics...

First pic is cutting the rear sight dovetail; second pic is cutting the front sight dovetail; third is rough cutting the 9mm Parabellum chamber (I use Clymer finish chambering reamer w/high Sulphur content cutting oil; feed in 1/32" at a time, back out & blow chips away)...

...fourth pic showing some of the chips while chambering; fifth pic shows a re-sized 9mm shell in the new chamber; sixth pic is what we have now...

The rear sight base has been contoured at rear; rear sight base is ~1/10" longer than Luger because I'll be using a shortened Mauser C96 tangent rear sight. Front sight dovetail is 5/16"; smallest I could find, which means my front sight will be fabricated in place. Muzzle and breech have been turned down slightly. Breech (where thread is) is still about 1/8" longer than needed, and thread diameter is still a bit oversize. Chamber will be cut deeper and headspace reamed in when breech is cut to length and barrel is fit to receiver.

I'll start on the front sight blank and rear sight base next.

Got some work done on the rear sight base today...Cut the reverse dovetails; made sure it would be a tight fit; and hogged out the sight cavity...

...and cut the slot for the C96 Mauser rear sight axle with a keyway cutter...Fits real good! :thumbup:

Need to locate the axle pivot holes and then mill the "slope" for the slider...I was thinking of shortening the C96 sight, but I think I'll leave it as is...If I have to, I'll mill a crescent in the bottom of the leaf to fit snug over the receiver (instead of notching the receiver)... ;)

Heh...A 1000 meter Luger sight... :D

Got the rear sight base fit today; also fit the C96 rear sight to it...

Not too bad...I think I can guarantee some fistfights at the next ESACA gun show... :D

I hope that is just a typo...200mm is 7 7/8"... :eek:

Are you adding on an extra inch for the threaded portion + part that butts against the [barrel extension/slide/receiver - choose one, the name for that piece seems ambiguous)???... :confused:

The barrel length is normally measured as the distance from the end of the muzzle to the front of the breechblock face. Slip a cleaning rod into the assembled gun, mark where it stops and then measure the rod ...

From the photos you have provided (Great photos of the process, BTW)... it looks like your front sight is going to have to be pretty darn tall!

Good. I wanted to make sure I wasn't an inch short. :thumbup:

I was measuring from the breech face as well. It'll be within a sixteenth. ;)

I printed out your dimensions...It took me this long to realize the OAL was an inch off... :eek: :p

By sticking my squib rod in the bore, I measure .635" from the top of the rod to the top of the sight leaf...I'll make my front sight the same height...

I don't know how tall the LP08 front sight is...but this will look sort of right... :p

Kind of hard to do...while cutting...oily hands, concentration, paranoia... :D

But I shortened the front sight base a little; cut back the front of the rear sight base; turned the threaded portion back to specs & finish reamed the chamber; and finally cut the taper...The taper came out very good... :cheers:

Impressive !! :rockon:

Great work and thanks for shering.
I,ve got a good old Meuser lathe but not a milling machine so all I can do for now are straight barrels without sight ramps etc.:(

Ingvar,

You should still be able to do barrel tapers by simply offsetting your tailstock on the lathe by half the difference between the large end and small end of the taper!

May I recommend two websites that you may find of great interest?

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/index.php

and

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/index.php

There are some really great tips and machining discussions on these two websites...

Hmmm... Rick, just curious...why did you delete your post?

I hate having to re-center my tailstock afterward... :grr:

I cut my tapers with the tool post (compound rest)...If you look in the top pic of post #34 above, you'll see the handle of the tool post feed sticking out the right side...

I set the tool post up and use a dial indicator against the part of the barrel to be tapered to show the amount of taper...in this case, it was ~.080"; so I swiveled the tool post until the dial indicated .040" of taper...Locked 'er down, and started cutting/feeding (manually)...

BTW: This is the machine I use for all this...


3-In-1 Multipurpose Machine with Micro Feed

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/pho...4199/44142.gif

...???...Did I miss something???... :confused:

Posts come and go... :(

Oh, well...If anyone has any constructive criticism, please post away!!! ;)

I roughed out a front sight blank today...It's installed, but I need to get some new belts for the lathe...The 5 year old 3/8" belts are delaminating...(I was wondering what that strange thumping noise was)...

I'll see if I can find some today and then re-mount my rotary indexing head again and finish milling the barrel flange to size; the same with the front barrel band; and then start in on the front sight... :thumbup:

I don't have anything constructive to offer, but I will say that I very much enjoyed following your progress. I one day hope to acquire some machinist skills.

Looks like you did a professional job with what appears to be a hobbyist's machine. I'm good friends with an old school machinist. His lament is that it's a dying art. CNC is king these days.

Again, thanks for taking the time to share... I'll bet more people than you realize are enjoying this thread.

I do have one question... How do you index the barrel so when you screw it on the frame the sights are not canted?

Jack

Jack -

I left the flange a bit oversize. The most a Luger barrel can be off is .050"...(20 threads per inch = .050" x 20). I read in another thread here that 1/8 of a turn is about right for torqueing the barrel down. So the most the barrel can be off is 7/8 of a turn... or .044"...

My flange is at .170"...Rick W quoted me .135" for the flange on his artillery barrel...So I have .035" to play with...I'll screw the barrel on and torque it down three times, then figure out how much I need to thin the flange from there...(It's easier to do than describe)... :thumbup:

I'll take pics...Right now, I'm still milling the front sight to size...I've mounted my barrel in my rotary indexing head and milled the front sight band and flange down, 4�º at a time...and milled the front & sides of the front sight flat with the barrel base...

This barrel is easier than most I've done...It has a convenient flat (rear sight base) for spirit leveling...that's what I'll use to level the barrel in the receiver.

I've been on vacation this week... :)

I found a nice little [3"] aluminum one at Home Depot... :)

Got the front sight roughed out...more...It won't look exactly like a Luger front sight; no way I can do micro-machining like that...which is why I mounted my sight before machining...

So, I roughed it to shape, milled the sides at an angle, made a crude arc to the leading edge...I made the height the same as the rear sight leaf top...It's too tall, but I'll have to think a bit as to how high to make it... :mad:

I like doing wildcats...I have a Colt Gov't Model in 38/45 Clerke and a S&W N-frame in .357/44 magnum...and this Broomhandle, in .256 Winchester Magnum/7.63mm Mauser...I cut down a .223 Remington case and run it through a shortened .256 Win Mag die to make the cartridges...barrel blank, like most all of mine, is from Numrich, many years ago... :D

Got a couple of little things finished...Cut a couple scallops in the rear sight base sides to mimic the LP08 base; re-cut the front sight ramp (I had used 60�º instead of the 40�º called for in the blueprints; I settled for 45�º); cut the muzzle back; re-cut the sight arc...

...It's getting there... ;)

End of my vacation today; work will go slowly from here on... :(

I enormously enjoyed every single picture posted here. Please do not forget to post finished product of your labor of love once completed.

Thanks !

Mine is not the Bain & Davis; it's the .44 Mag brass run through a .357 Automag die. I used to have an Automag with both .357 and .44 Automag barrels; ran a couple shells through the .357 Automag dies and then had Clymer (back when the family still ran the business) grind me a reamer. Did a couple N-frame cylinders; worked out real well. :)

Not so good...It takes a lot of experimentation to get the ramp and mag right...I still don't have it right... :(

That's the 9 x 19 brass run through a .30 Luger die??? I might try that...I've been making my .30 Luger cartridges from .223 Remington brass cut down & run through the .30 Luger dies...I did the same thing with the 7.63mm Broomhandle...

Pic attached...Stripper clip of Rube Goldberg 7.63mm Broomhandle (made from .223 Rem); one of the 7.63mm Broomhandle/Rube Goldberg cartridges; one 38/45 Clerke; a 357/44 bottleneck hull; and a loaded 357/44 bottleneck... :D