Considering a 1970's Mauser American Eagle...
 

As first time Luger purchaser - no flaming please - I've collected every other military rifle/handgun under the sun and a,m now getting around to Lugers. Seems to be a decent product with an interesting pedigree - but looks a little different than the commercial or military models I've seen. Any reason why I shouldn't start this collection with one of these examples? They seem to be priced right - 900 - 1300 for a "new" weapon is reasonable. Thanks in advance - you guys have a nice forum here.

Mauser P.08 Parabellum
 

Hi Slundin, I think the Mauser Parabellum would be an excellent choice for both collecting, OR, shooting...but not both... If you are going to collect them, then un-fired in the box, complete with all, is your best investment..If you're going to shoot it, the any of them will do.. They are excellent Lugers and the more I study them, the better I like them... ... Best to you, til...lat'r....GT:jumper:

Thanks for that - you I will shoot it. I actually shoot everything I own - including a series of terrific HP's that I had - later traded. Even my mint stuff gets used every now and then - if you buy or trade right - why not have some fun with your wallhangers or safe queens? So yes - unless my smith thought it was going to explode - I'd shoot it. The 6" version kind of look slike a Navy - but the grip angle on these guns seems different. Do they take the same grips as standards? I haven't done a drill down comparison - but on first glance they look just a little different than the older pieces. Maybe I should start with a pre war commerical - that I can also shoot!

Better shoot post war Mauser 9m/m. Most pre-war commercials were 7,65 m/m, the ammo cost $30-$40 per box. It's like driving a SUV a year ago.

Ouch! Are the pre war 9mms I've seen advertised modified??? And I thought it was expensive to shot my Desert Eagle!

There are some 9m/m pre-war commercials, e.g. DWM Fat Barrel, Mauser Banner, etc. But those are expansive variations. If they are cheap, then most likely being parts gun, which won't shoot well anyway. I had a postwar Parabellum in the past, I shot around 1,000 rounds from it. It worked great but the front sight coming out of its base. I bought it around $800 from a local dealer, with all accessories, including the blue plastic Mauser tag..... not much cheaper than today, and that's more than ten years ago. Sold later.

Pre war would be fine by me. Looks like the dwm's are fairly plentiful - I've seen prices from 900- 1800 (and up) - but decent shooters around 1500 or so.

Actually, I saw advertisement in "Trader" section. One member selling Lugers imported from Canada. So, those guns have import marks on the gun somewhere. Not affecting functionality though, and price is very fair. I am not the seller, just FYI. Good luck in searching!

That's cool - will check it out - thanks!!

didn't find anything

Depends on what you consider a decent shooter. You should be able to find one that is okay at $600, a much nicer for less than $800.


If you are looking for a collectable (read anything over $900-$1500) and shoot it, thats fine, but be aware that if you break a numbered (major part) that value will drop down to about $600.


However, if you consider under $1300 a shooter collectable, then take a closer look at the trader section, as I have a nice 1915 there for sale...


ed

Will do Ed - thanks for the lead.

Looks interesting Ed - is this something you can take out and shoot without fearing breaking a part? I haven't looked up the standard powder loads on pre war 9mm ammo- how do you think it would stand up to modern ammo or would I need to load something lighter?

There is a thread on breaking parts; it does happen and several of us have had lugers / P38's break. I broke a breachblock, but I was using +p stupid I know. Lots of folks shoot their WW1 lugers, I have a reblued 1914 Erfurt artillery that I have shot thousands of rounds through, since it was buffed bad and reblued, I never thought anything about it, but I was never worried about breaking a part.

Ed

I'll give it a little thought Ed - still on the fence about a pre war commercial vs the newer Mauser - probably wind up with both eventually anyway! Only room in budget for one new toy at a time in this economy. Hmmm....

Mauser Parabellum
 

Dear G.T.

The 1970's Mauser copy of a Swiss Model 29 does shoot reliably.:thumbsup:

The silly grip saftey totally distroys the "feel" of the original in your hand.:surr:

The grips are checkered so sharply that they will actually try to cut into your hand upon firing and are just too damned "fat"!:surr:

The sear is totally unprotected from the top. This is why they used the aweful grip safty on this model in the first place.:surr:

The front sight is calibrated to shoot two to three inches below where it is held on your target.:surr:

Other than all of these distractions, again, the pistol does fire reliably. I personally own seven of them.:rockon:

Sieger:rolleyes:

This screen drives me crazy, with Ed's big flag waving on the left, and a group of tiny yellow flags waving in the middle, and a gene jumping up and down on the top:)

I just checked the Trader section. Maybe I remembered wrong, maybe he sold it..... the 1920 commercial DWM disappeared from the listing. Only three guns left.

Mixed reviews on the 1970's Mauser! I checked out one of my old gun digests from 1975 and found there were two models - a parabellum and an auto pistol - the parabellum being based on a 1906 model with more of a traditional rounded grip - any experiences to report with these two different models?

oh, you either dislike the American flag or ADHDs (well, I am too, oh, look at that, ......)

Most of the articles that appeared in the 1970s US gun magazines were based on a few demo guns that Mauser prepared before official production began. These demos are usually just reworked and camoflaged Swiss lugers :)

Mauser did indeed make both the Parabellum and the HSc, although the HSc parts were almost completely made at Manurhin in France.

If you are going after a collectible Parabellum American Eagle, the main tips are:

-As unfired and complete as possible (gun, box, 2 mags, rod, takedown key, target, manual).
-As low a serial number as possible.
-Look for the proof, an Eagle/N proof on a PAE is rare, the FBM is the common one.
-Alternatively, look for the transitional 1972 model with Swiss style small parts and the P08 style grip.

Thanks Vlim - I was wondering how long it woulf take you to get around to weighing in on this thread@! Funny thing - I was at a Cabela's yesterday looking at some of their DWM's - and the guy in charge of the gun library told me that hadn't sold a luger there in two years - and no longer take them in (at that particular store - there are clearly lugers in the system). I think the market may be down to a few hard core collector's - just like M1's - and old 1911's. The few and the proud need to stick together!

I have two 70's Mausers, a 6" barreled .30 that is a safe queen, and a more common 4" barreled 9MM. Both have the P-08 swell at the bottom of the grip. The 9MM I'm shooting regularly, though the grip safety is a terrible imposition that I'm going to try to engineer out. Better no safety at all than that hand pinching nightmare! The way they did it it will not be easy to eliminate it and still have a safety. The LH grip on my 9MM was weird and I had my 'smith redo it (see my earlier posts about that)
Other than that it functions nicely and is very accurate. Reloading for the .30 is the answer, pretty cheap. Starline makes the brass. I use Hornady XTP hollow points at .308 but someone told me that's not correct, that the original bullet at .312 sealed better, so now I'm wondering if I'm 'gas jetting' past the base of the XTP. I shoot those in a Benelli pistol, not the Mauser P-08.

I have two, a 6" barreled .30 that is a safe queen, and a more common 4" barreled 9MM. Both have the P-08 swell at the bottom of the grip. The 9MM I'm shooting regularly, though the grip safety is a terrible imposition that I'm going to try to engineer out. Better no safety at all than that hand pinching nightmare! The way they did it it will not be easy to eliminate it and still have a safety. The LH grip on my 9MM was weird and I had my 'smith redo it (see my earlier posts about that)
Other than that it functions nicely and is very accurate. Reloading for the .30 is the answer, pretty cheap. Starline makes the brass. I use Hornady XTP hollow points at .308 but someone told me that's not correct, that the original bullet at .312 sealed better, so now I'm wondering if I'm 'gas jetting' past the base of the XTP. I shoot those in a Benelli pistol, not the Mauser P-08.

So grip safety no good for shootin? Maybe I should be thinking along the lines of a commercial DWM - they seem to be plentiful - available in 9mm and not too expensive.

I must say it doesn't bother me. I've shot the 1972 Mauser with grip safety and also the Dutch 1906 KNIL model with grip safety. I guess it's a personal opinion.

Modifying a Mauser Parabellum from grip safety to non-grip safety is actually pretty straightforward. Even the non-grip safety Mauser Parabellums actually have a camoflaged (hidden) grip safety that has been shortened so there is nothing sticking outside the grip. A modified safety catch operates it.

Vlim,

have any pictures of a non-grip safety MP luger with left grip removed ?

do you know if that same method was used on the target model MP guns ?

have you noticed any binding type wear on the underside of the center link to rear toggle link on your shooter MP ? this is area where center link rubs on the inner round area of toggle

mine seems to show about 3/8 inch bright metal wear there somehow - Ive never seen that on another luger
toggle axle to link fit seems ok

also one toggle know contacts the rear frame ramp about .020 inch sooner than the other side on my shooter example - which seems like a lot of variance - it that normal ?

thanks
Bill

The binding is relatively normal with this type of blueing and Mauser's approach to not pre-assemble their guns before blueing. The only parts that were matched were the rear toggle and the frame. This was done to prevent the exact situation you describe. It doesn't harm the gun but it will pull the gun slightly to one side causing some inacurracy. Since this was a 'running change' chances are your gun predates that change. My 06/72-something shows slight wear between the front and mid-toggle links, and of course on the receiver/frame rail contact area.

This is a modified grip safety on a bare frame, without the safety catch, but you get the idea. The little pin is the running change that was introduced to hold the new, more ergonomically shaped, grips securely in place. The frame shown is the old style Interarms version without the pin hole for the new grips.

Vlim,

thanks !!! for the excellent pictures and info

so it looks like all that is needed is just to cut off the palm safety and stub to it from the internal bar part - almost too easy

should be a lot easier than adapting the frame slot to a dwm P08 sear bar block

and I suppose one could cut the palm part off and polish the metal + blue to fill / match up with the grip slot when in safe position

mine has the grip pins and is P08 type frame - so far about 200 rounds with a few eject problems

now if I can resolve the rear target sight and bull barrel problem , could finally have a simulated target MP

rear target sight and barrel ( long barrel extension type ) seem to be elusive problems to resolve here in usa

have you seen any of the Rettinger in Germany made target lugers ?

thanks again for the info

Bill

Did the Postwar Mausers sold in Europe have AE crest?

Alvin, no they didn't (at least not normally). Some AE marked guns made it to the European market, being bought by Mauser staff, etc..., but they weren't commercially available to the general public. Euro AE's should have Ulm proofs instead of the FBM proof.

Bill, I'm not familiar with the Rettinger target pistols, but I have studied several Mauser Parabellum target versions in 9mm and .30 luger.

Vlim, with the shown modification does the thumb safety still work? I noticed on both of mine that all the safety does is block the grip safety from pulling the sear block out of the way. My 9MM does indeed have the grip pin you show. I just checked, the .30 does too!

So, the thing to do, it seems to me is to redesign the long block so it has vertical movement by slotting the pin hole at the bottom, and attaching it to the safety extension with a pin so that when the safety is put in the up (The current "safe" position) it pushes the bar down and the block tab out of sight as per the original. I want to do this, but of course then the marking would be backwards, "Safe" would actually be unsafe. But then it's in German so I guess it wouldn't matter here in America.

Vlim - where do you shop for your Lugers?

I don't, they usually find me instead :)

But the frame and parts shown are still with our Mauser-friends in Oberndorf am Neckar. The little cross pin is a simple, elegant solution to an annoying problem. It is effectively one of the little improvements on the original design.

All that Mauser did was redesign the thumb safety catch so that it would push the entire safety bar downwards or upwards, the rest remained unchanged. You are correct when you say that it will effectively alter the 'safe' state from up to down. This can also be observed on the 1904 Navy lugers that had their grip safety altered. The old 'Gesichert' was milled out and a new 'Gesichert' was placed in the upward position.

Vlim , have you had an opportunity to shoot or test the trigger pull, parts fitment , and details of the MP target lugers ?

did they seem to have detailed work , or were they primarily a standard MP with heavy barrel and the extended sights

anything unusual in the trigger mechanism ?

thanks
Bill

Bill,

Mauser did experiment with a number of target versions, including at least one 'everything is adjustable' prototype with added barrel weight. There are versions with an adjustable trigger pull around. The commercial target guns are basically normal Parabellums with target barrels (bull barrel) and target rear sight fitted. They are pretty well made, as were all later generation Mauser Parabellums. Most problems are found in the early 1971-1972 series as it took them a while to get themselves acquainted with MP production again.

Wishing to redesign my safety so it works without the grip safety, I'm hesitant to "destroy" the original safety block by cutting the grip part off. (I plan on filling the slots in the grips with walnut glued in and checkered)

Are there any available grip safety parts I could buy? That way, if I do it right, the Interarms Luger could be "put back" to it's original configuration some day if someone wanted to. The safety lever itself would simply have a small hole in it for a pin to transfer up/down movement to the bar, unless someone has a safety lever to sell me too. The bar will have a slot at the bottom where the pivot pin is now to allow movement up and down. The frame will have a removable filler at the forward end of the slot so the bar cannot move forward. The safety marking would be backwards but, as I said, no one here can read German anyway.

How about wrapping a wide rubber band on the grip.... that would effectively disable the grip safety, without any permanent change.

"The front sight is calibrated to shoot two to three inches below where it is held on your target."

That has been my experience with my new 6-inch barrelled Mauser Para. It shoots great but hits two to three inches low. My mismatched P.08 shoots a little high.
I do like the trigger pull on the Mauser Parabellum. It's crisp and doesn't have the "creep" that so many Lugers have.
Overall, its a great Luger and I wish they would start making them again.

HS et al, I have several new original Parabellum grip safeties available @$60 each + S&H. TH at hellerarms@webtv.net