9x19 in 7,63x25 chamber
 

Thought about shooting 9x19 from 7,63 Mauser? One guy tried it many years ago, and he said the bullet flied out without visible damage to the gun. Not me, unfortunately, his words belong to the category that I cannot simply ignore.

The shoulder of 7,63x25 is a little bit higher than case length of 9x19. It is interesting to notice because the contour of 9x19 (less taper, "fatter"), chamber length of 7,63 pistol is effectively shortened when 9x19 loaded in. When firing 9x19 from 7,63 pistol (haven't tried yet), an obvious potential problem should be piercing the primer, well, beside blow up the barrel.

I don't buy it for a second.
Firing the 9mm (if the gun could) would result, imho, in catastrophic (and spectacular) failure.....

I agree, it's hard to believe. One story of a .45 1917 revolver is interesting as well:

I once knew a young man who was annoyed one night by an owl. He was an excellent revolver shot, so he got his .45 Model 1917, and took careful aim by the bright moonlight, and fired, without disturbing his feathered friend in the least. He took better aim, and fired again, and when the owl only opened his big eyes and looked puzzled, he took a quick shot with lots of temper behind it, and finally threw the revolver, which at least gave him the satisfaction of seeing the feathered pest flap away into the darkness. When he retrieved his gun and went to clean it, it wouldn't clean, and on examining for the reason, he found that the barrel was plugged. A steel drift and a hammer removed three service bullets. The barrel was slightly bulged. (Hatcher's Notebook, chapter "Experiment with Barrel Obstructions")

In this case, the barrel was only "slightly" bulged, no damage to the wheel..... three rounds, lower pressure than semi-auto, but still amazing though.

Much lower pressure and the gap between the cylinderand the barrel allows for a large release of pressure. There is a widely printed picture of, I believe a .38 Enfield with the barrel disected showing more than a cylinders worth of bullets lodged in it. The barrel does not seem to have been bulged at all. Once again, low pressure and the cylinder gap explains the lack of damage.

..........

Just tried to remove the firing pin and see if 9mm rounds can be chambered from the magazine into a 7.63 chamber, and at least that part of it is possible.

I quess the barrel could survive it, as every barrel extend a bit as the bullet passes trough. But on the other hand, this would be more than just 'a little bit'.. perhaps the metal is softer than whats used today, and by that making it possible?



I would think when firing a revolver where the bullets get stuck in the barrel, the shooter would hear a significantly less bang than normal? (especially if it was something like a Nagant)
Perhaps close to the KGB silenced amunition, where no gass gets out of the shell at all.. http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

btw. Had a bullet stuck on a Mauser 1914 once, but did not notice any twist to left. Got so scared by all the sparks, that I probably would not notice much anyway.. ;)

I think that it would result in a case of, "A fool and his face soon parting."

I have no doubt that the first couple of rounds would probably make it through, provided they have a normal lead core. The barrel would get stressed to a point of failure eventually. I can imagine that steel cased or steel core ammunition would do quite some more damage as lead, and certainly hot lead, is relatively easy to deform.

What I also heard was a shooter using 7,65 para rounds in his unmodified C/96. The gas seal would not be as effectiv as with the 7,63 Mauser round, but otherwise it wouldn't cause much problems. Me, I'd like to use the ammo designed for the gun I shoot it with :)

According to what I heard, firing .380 ACP from 9m/m Luger pistol is OK, as long as the cartridge was feed from the magazine and hold by the extractor, it shoots but the action does not recycle completely because the ammo is weak. Manually pushing in .380ACP into chamber won't work because the case goes in too much.

This type of unusual activity also happened in real world operation....in "gun hungery" part of the world. In 1980s, Northwestern China, there was an fugitive armed with a Walther PPK, which was a super rare gun there, and he could not find appropriate 7,65m/m ammo, so he loaded the gun with "Type 64" pistol's cartridge (common there, rare here) which headspace is a little bit shorter than .32ACP. The gun usually worked and he had killed a few men with that. The day police captured him was interesting: he almost pushed the PPK barrel on the first police's forehead, who just rushed into the room and obviously astonished. The fugitive pushed the trigger.... no "bang".... the police "waked up", used his service pistol as a hammer and knocked the fugitive's head and captured him. Later inspection of the PPK and the chambered round showed a shallow dent on the primer. Not many people were so luck though.

Hehehe.... Just praised it could withstood relatively high pressure.... looks like it's one good reason for "stepped barrel" design on very late pieces.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=119228947

I know of two cases of the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge being fired from a C96 chambered for the 7.62 Mauser. First case was a one off with no noticeable damage to the pistol. Second case was in England where an ignorant shooter had made it a practice. He was saved by the pistol ban. When his pistol went through the deactivation process it was noted damage was becoming apparent and it would have let go before very many more such rounds went through it.

It is sometimes surprising how much abuse a firearm can take.

A GOOD and SENSIBLE practice is , NEVER fire a round through a gun that it was not chambered for.

There are several factors to consider. Failure due to pressure. Failure due to detonation. Failure due to metalurgy. And failure due to stupidity.

An example: It stands to reason that a 12ga shotgun should take higher pressures than a 20ga shotgun. However, if you fire a 20ga shell in a 12ga it can result in "20-12" detonation. A 20ga fired in a 12ga can and will blow up like a hand grenade. The kenetic energy needs to be tightly contained. If not, it will result in detonation. The same is true in all firearms. The rapid expansion of gases increases dramatically between the cartridge case and the chamber wall. It's like driving a car into a wall at 5 mph which would stop the car. As opposed to driving it 75 mph, the wall fails.

In 40+ years of shooting all types of guns, I have seen some pretty amazing and foolhardy things. I've also seen people with parts of their anatomies damaged and missing, due to "experiments" and negligence with firearms.

My advice is DON'T!!

It could result in having to type with your elbows, and reading with one eye...

Ron,
I believe the "20 in 12" blow up is caused by careless hunters carrying 20ga. and 12ga. shot shells mixed together. When you drop a 20ga. into a 12ga. gun, it won't fire but it drops to the forward end of the chamber. Upon the failure to fire, the hapless hunter then loads a correct 12ga. shell in on top of the 20ga. resulting in the hand grenade effect the next time he pulls the trigger. This of course happens when 2 1/2" shells are being used in a gun chambered for 3" shells.

Ron
I don't think it matters if you shoot 2 1/2 shotgun shells in a 3 inch chamber. The shotgun headspaces on the head of the case. Several of the trapshooters I shoot with use 2 1/2 shells in their 3 inch duck gun. Bill

Ron,

Sent e-mail

Bill,

Check your PMs.

Bill,
Thanks for the clarification. I know you can use 2 1/2" shells in a 3" chamber, I have done it. What I was indicating is that it takes a 3" chamber to allow the 2 1/2" 20ga. shell to drop in far enough to allow a 2 1/2" 12ga. shell to be loaded behind it.

Many C96's have nearly shot out barrels and even more are almost smooth bored. With little or no rifling the pressures would be greatly reduced.

I just want to say that shooting 9X19 in a 7.63 is very stupid, I don't know how else to say it.

I plead with everyone not to do this stunt, you are endangering your life and the life of those around you by doing so-its not worth it.

Vern

Ron
Got it. I should have thought first. It's an age thing. Bill

First, let me say happy new year everyone!

Then over to what I have to say, wich is besides the point I guess.. but I'm using the 7.62x25mm Tokarev ammunition produced by Winchester in my 7.63mm C96 and Royal. In general 7.62 Tokarev should not be used, as they are a bit too hot.. but these made by Winchester seems to be just right.

The Winchester Tokarev stuff is relabeled ammo from a European manufacturer. S&B if I remember correctly. Which says nothing one way or the other for how hot a load it is.

BTW: Modern 12, 16, & 20 gauge cartridges all have the same SAAMI pressure specs. I think the 28 gauge does too. The .410 runs higher pressures since it must push a longer shot column to similar velocities.

That's scary news for me. S&B (Seller & Bellot) is a Czechoslovakian company, I guess you beleve they produce them by lisence?
Czechoslovakia have been using some very hot 7.62 ammunition in their CZ-52 pistol amoung others. It will not help reduzing my muzzle shake thinking it might be Czechoslovakian stuff i'm running trough my 70+ year old pistols :confused:

Just wear eye-protection that's strong enough to catch the bolt :D

Yes, I'm in no habit coming back home with a black eye. Will start using shades like the ones on Gerbens avatar :D

Keep in mind it is labeled 7.62 Tokarev, not 7.63 Mauser.

I checked the box, and you are abselutely right that it's made in Czechoslovakia. Find that scary..
So I tried it them trough a chronograph and got 1377 f.p.s, one original 7.63 Mauser round came out at 1368 f.p.s. A bit highter than the original ammunition.. but really not that much.
I would think ammunition made for guns like the CZ-52 would have a higher speed compared to the original round.. Please share your thoughts about this, could they be dangerous?

*Edit measued at 25m

Numerous Mausers have this "feature".... one picture from a Rock Island Auction session of 2007, please note the area behind the bolt stop.

Or worse, the 2nd picture came from an AuctionArm.com item.

Wish I knew about this 'feature' before I purchased my Royal :(
The C96 I have sent most of the 7.62 Tokarev's trough is still ok.

Stress on the bolt retainer and rear of the receiver is determined by bolt velocity, which in turn is determined by impulse, not pressure in an otherwise sound C96. The chrono velocity listed above is in the ballpark so I don't think it's a problem. The C96 is basically a strong design so pressure running a tad spiffy won't really hurt.

The real problem with catastrophic failure in a C96 is the hazards that come with old age. Bolt retainers and the retainer hole in the receiver have been known to crack as shown above. The locking lugs will become rounded with mileage, allowing unlocking to occur a bit early which will tend to raise bolt velocity. There is a fix for the last problem.

Thanks for the input, but I would reserve a little on the "worn parts" theory. It's hard to explain why some Mausers that lost almost all rifling still have straight edges behind the bolt stop, and some guns with excellent bore and much lower mileage have bent/deformed edges. I feel that the latter was still more related with firing higher pressure ammo.

Have not gotten a chance to inspect a damaged gun for detail yet. Will find one.

If the edge behind the bolt stop is very bent (like the 2nd pix above), the bolt cannot close completely. I just did a little experiment. By inserting a tiny cleaning patch between the bolt and the receiver, I created a gap of around 1m/m between them. Then, pushed down the trigger, the hammer did not fall.... the trigger had been disconnected from the sear. So, the gun shown in the 2nd pix is not functional anymore.

Tried Alvin's experiment with the cleaning patch on the Royal I mention above. On semi auto it can't tolerate any more than just 1mm, but on automatic the hammer will release no matter how far back the bolt is. This gun is quite different internally than a C96 or M712, but I wonder if the same goes for a M712?

As seen on the picture, the top one has a small bulge on the upper part. Showed this one to Alwin earlier, he mention that it might be a softer metal than used in this one compared to the C96/M712.. makes sense to me, as it looks quite unused otherwise.

Is there any way to fix this? Or would that just make the metal more fragile in that area?
http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...1&d=1231577629

On Westinger Schnellfeuer (I have not gotten a chance to look at Nickl), the firing control switch does two things: it controls the width of the trigger and the position of the 2nd sear (full-auto sear).

In full auto mode, the width of trigger top is extended to raise the disconnector all the time as long as the trigger is kept pushing down, regardless the bolt position, so the 1st sear (semi-auto sear) does not lock the hammer anymore while the trigger is kept pushing down.

Also in full auto mode, the 2nd sear bar is enabled. The lower tip of the 2nd sear locks the hammer, and it releases the hammer when barrel extension touches its upper tip, just before the barrel extension fully returns to its forward position.

So, on Schnell full-auto mode, the hammer won't fall while the bolt is open wide even if the trigger is kept pushing down, because the hammer is locked by the 2nd sear. But the hammer will be released when the bolt and barrel extension almost returns to battery.

May I assume Royal has only one sear? If that's true, its full-auto mode was implemented more like "slam-fire".....

The mechanical design is packed down into the frame, it's a hassle to dissemble it.. So I'm not really sure if it has one or two sears. But the hammer does not release until the bolt is completely back into the forward position. First time hammer will fall by trigger pull, is not related to the bolts position on this broom look alike

i would like an explanation of why would you want to
 

possibly screw-up your pistol with improper ammo or loads??
the market is not in that bad of shape.

It's supposed to be two-sear design then. The behavior matches Schnellfeuer perfectly. When the hammer is cocked by finger, it is locked by the 1st sear. Pull out the bolt, the trigger is not disconnected from the trigger in the full-auto mode (vs in semi-auto mode, the trigger is disconnected), so push the trigger will release the hammer, even if the bolt is open.

Please note, the hammer is locked by the 1st sear in the first time cocking. Why the 2nd sear does not get involved in this step? It's because the barrel extension is in full forward position, so the 2nd sear is in 'release' position. Keeping trigger pushed down, the 1st sear is effectively disabled, the 2nd sear controls the releasing of the hammer in the following firing, until the trigger is released to re-enable the 1st sear, or the gun runs out of the ammo, bolt is hold open wide by the magazine follower.

Regarding "fixing" the minor dimple on the barrel extension.... It's not broken, better leave it alone. "No change in my hands". Just IMO.

Bore wear versus locking bolt wear: The C96 started its career in the days of corrosive ammo, so bore wear doesn't correlate to mileage. Put the horse away wet a few times and the bore is shot even with low mileage. On the other hand, regardless of actual mileage, the locking lugs will progressively round off with additional mileage, whether the effect is slow or fast and no matter what the primer is. Hot loads might accelerate the process a bit, but the bottom line is still mileage.

There are after market bolt stops available. Some will recommend the use of a quality after market bolt stop in any C96 that is actually fired. I am not prepared to say they are wrong.

Be it a C93, C96, or C98, (I once got chewed out for calling a Luger a C98) they are all classy old gals that should be treated with respect and I don't recommend any load hotter than enough to reliably cycle the action for any of them. In the case of the 7.65 mm Luger, this may mean a hand load hotter than modern factory loads, at least those commonly available hear in the U.S.

Thanks for your input, I totally agree that these old guns should be kept away from hot loads.
What do you mean by round off locking lugs? I guess it's the area of the lug that meets the rear part of the upper?

One side of the locking lugs are on the underside of the bolt. The other side is on top of the oddly shaped little locking piece under the bolt which is cammed down by the big oddly shaped piece when the cannon recoils. If you take the cannon (Upper on a browning action pistol.) off, it will not lock by itself, unlike the Luger cannon which does lock with out the rest of the pistol. This is one of those cases where a picture is worth a lot of words.

Actually, it's easy to see how bolt lock works even without a cut-away.

Unload the gun, open the hammer, remove the firing pin and bolt stop. Then, hold the grip and push the muzzle against a solid surface so barrel moves back to its rear most position, use the other hand to pull the bolt out.

Look into the square hole from the back of the gun, push the muzzle against the plam and release it, you will see bolt lock "teeth" swings down and up. The two locking cuts under the bolt match the position of the locking teeth on the bolt lock when the bolt is in the closed position.

=====

If I had said "Canadian Cannon" (Inglis), it would have been my invention. "Luger Cannon" was your invention. Not every pistol was entitled "Cannon" in old Oriental world:) Formally accepted nicknames were "Canadian Lu-zi", "Humpback Lu-zi". "Lu-zi" rougly means automatic pistol in Northern Chinese slang. General public did not study ballistics at that time, direct feeling was bigger pistols were more powerful than smaller ones, so entitled "cannon".

And what about Pachelbel's Cannon? :)

Thanks Ron! I forgot this one. :)